2726 lines
41 KiB
Plaintext
2726 lines
41 KiB
Plaintext
1
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For how long were you a
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moderator?
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2
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00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:09,280
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I started
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moderating the database in 2012.
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3
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00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,240
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I think it was launched in
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September 2012, but we
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4
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00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,840
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were involved in the project
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maybe March-April.
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5
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00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:23,040
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So, at the end of the
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development, they contacted
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us.
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6
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00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,320
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'They' are the
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government - the Flemish government - who
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7
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00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,520
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built this database and
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website.
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8
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00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,400
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And they attracted us because
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we had knowledge
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9
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00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,680
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of working with participatory
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10
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00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,640
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ways and methodologies.
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11
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00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,640
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And I worked on it just until
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12
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00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:47,640
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April 2019.
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13
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00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:49,640
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When was the transition to the
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new database?
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14
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00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,640
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The transition happened in 2018
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15
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00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,840
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from the beginning of the year
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and it was launched in the
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beginning of December.
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16
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00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:04,560
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What role did the Flemish
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government play in the development of the
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database?
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17
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00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:04,240
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The first and the second?
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Yes.
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18
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00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:05,920
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Yeah. Well
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19
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00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,200
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they are the owners of the
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database
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20
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00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,360
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and you can say it's a
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reflection of their policy.
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21
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00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,000
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So, their policy on intangible
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cultural heritage
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22
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00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,040
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is totally incorporated in
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this tool.
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23
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00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,920
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You can see it as a mirror of
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their policies.
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24
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00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,560
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There was a new policy since
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the end
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25
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00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,080
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of 2010, there was a new
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vision on how
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26
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00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,400
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to work with intangible
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cultural heritage in
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Flanders. And
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27
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00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,320
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2012 was a year that they
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started really to
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28
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00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,160
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develop the policy and put it
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into practice.
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29
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00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,280
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And that professional
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organizations
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30
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00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,840
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in Flanders were
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31
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00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,600
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beginning to understand what
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intangible
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32
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00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:49,880
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heritage is and what's it
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about.
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33
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00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,400
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So the government developed a
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tool to
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34
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00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,040
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sustain the work on intangible
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35
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00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:56,040
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cultural heritage.
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36
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00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,000
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For the volunteers - the
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37
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00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,760
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tradition
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bearers, the ICH intangible cultural heritage bearers - , but
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38
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00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,760
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also for the professionals.
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39
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00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,360
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Were you also involved in the
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process of developing the
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40
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00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,960
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database? How did you
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collaborate on that?
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41
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00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,520
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In the beginning it was mainly
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the government itself
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42
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00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:15,840
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who developed it.
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43
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00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:17,240
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With FARO.
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44
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00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,680
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They were mainly involved.
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45
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00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,320
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I think also PACKED was
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involved.
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46
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00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,760
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But PACKED was involved later
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on in the process, together
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47
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00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,680
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with us because of
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48
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00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,200
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that's an organization who has
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expertise on
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49
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00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:35,520
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digital heritage and we had
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expertise on
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participative methods.
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50
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00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,280
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So that's why they attracted
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us both, but
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51
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00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,000
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much later in the process.
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52
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00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,120
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So there was already
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a cooperation building the
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database.
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53
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00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,040
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They already had decided what
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they wanted, who
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54
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00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:47,600
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was going to build it.
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55
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00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,920
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How did you find the first
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database?
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56
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00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,000
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How did I find it?
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Interesting...
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57
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00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,960
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Challenging...
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58
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00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,200
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I was the moderator of the
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platform.
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59
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00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,760
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Then you have already two terms
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and what I'm
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60
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00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,920
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saying now has a very broad
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meaning.
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61
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00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,240
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They said it was a platform on
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the digital cultural heritage,
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62
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00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,320
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but
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with the word platform they
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meant it's
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63
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00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,040
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not only a digital tool, but
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64
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00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,600
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it's also a network of
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65
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00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,240
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professionals who are working
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on intangible
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66
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00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,920
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cultural heritage and also
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the volunteers
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or the tradition bearers.
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67
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00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,800
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So
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68
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00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,960
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, following up on that.
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69
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00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,600
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My role as a moderator was also
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70
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00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,280
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not only - let's say -
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the web master or
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71
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00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:32,880
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the content manager.
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72
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00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,400
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But I was also a central
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73
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00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,000
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person to this network.
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74
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00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,760
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And as an organization we tried
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to develop
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75
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00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,920
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this network the first
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years: 2012
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, 2013, 2014. That was a big part of my job
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76
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00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,120
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.
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77
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00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,280
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To get this network going.
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78
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00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,720
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So I also played a role in that
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79
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00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,320
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side and I was the center of
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80
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00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,840
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this big network of
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professionals,
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81
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00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,400
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tradition bearers, the
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government.
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82
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00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,400
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And yeah, I was in charge of
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the
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83
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00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,720
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flow of information and
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guidance
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84
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00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,400
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on every aspect and
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85
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00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:10,920
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in every way.
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86
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00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,680
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Next to content management
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and webmaster.
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87
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00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,920
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The content was created by
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professionals,
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88
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00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,920
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by tradition bearers, but not
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by me.
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89
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00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,480
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I was only an extra gate
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90
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00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,320
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who guided them to ask them
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extra
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91
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00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,640
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questions if some information
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was missing
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92
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00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:32,200
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and we did minimal editing on
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93
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00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,320
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the texts before it
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was put online.
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94
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00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,680
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So my interactions were very
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minimal.
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95
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00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,200
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And that's why the term
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moderator also came up because
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96
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00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,440
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that was very clear from the
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start, that this was my role.
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97
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00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,000
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That it was not to intervene
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too much in the
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98
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00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:53,080
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content but just manage it and
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moderate it.
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99
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00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,800
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Maybe you could describe how
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the process
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100
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00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,520
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of adding a new element to the
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101
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00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,160
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database goes?
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102
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00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,160
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There were different ways
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103
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00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,200
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to get in contact with people.
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104
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00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,760
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So, it starts with people who
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105
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00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,520
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wanted to add their - you say
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element
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106
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00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,160
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I say
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intangible cultural heritage -
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to the database.
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107
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00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,600
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Some people just heard
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about the database.
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108
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00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,320
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Some people just heard about
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109
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00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,120
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the official inventory for
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intangible cultural heritage
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in Flanders.
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110
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00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,760
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That was usually
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111
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00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,520
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the most common that people
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heard about the inventory
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112
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00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,960
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and they eventually came up
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with the question: how can we
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113
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00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,480
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get our intangible cultural
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heritage on
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114
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00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,200
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this list, as they see it on
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the inventory.
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115
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00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,720
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So that was usually the most
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common question and
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116
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how they reached us.
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117
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00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,880
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Sometimes it was just us
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118
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00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,000
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or other professional
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organisations,
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119
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00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,000
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who contacted people and on the
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other hand, we also organised
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some
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120
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00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,720
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workshops and stuff like that
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; promotional
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121
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00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,200
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actions to promote the site
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and the database.
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122
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00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,360
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So that once people decide yes
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123
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00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,000
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we want to add our intangible
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124
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cultural heritage, they could
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ask for that.
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125
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00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,640
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That was how the process was in
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126
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00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:16,000
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the first database.
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127
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00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,480
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There it was that they could
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ask for a login, a
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128
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00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,920
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personal one, I would provide
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it to them.
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129
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00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,760
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Then they get access to the
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actual database.
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130
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00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,080
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They have a manual.
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131
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00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:29,800
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On how to work with a database
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with
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132
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00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,200
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explanations at the different
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fields.
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133
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00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,960
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What is what is really asked
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here
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134
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00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,440
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and then they could just go
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ahead.
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135
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00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,360
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But what we also did and what
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we strongly advised
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136
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00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,240
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was to have a conversation
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with one of our colleague
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|
|
|
137
|
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00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,760
|
|
organizations that
|
|
|
|
138
|
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00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:47,720
|
|
was linked to their intangible
|
|
culture.
|
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|
|
139
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00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:53,240
|
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To make it more clear, let's
|
|
say, someone
|
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|
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140
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00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,840
|
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who would want to add Carnival
|
|
or something
|
|
|
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141
|
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00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,440
|
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like that, then we would guide
|
|
them through an organization
|
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|
|
142
|
|
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,080
|
|
who worked on social traditions
|
|
|
|
143
|
|
00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:04,600
|
|
and that organization would
|
|
have a conversation with
|
|
|
|
144
|
|
00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,800
|
|
them on what is intangible
|
|
heritage.
|
|
|
|
145
|
|
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,320
|
|
What is a policy on
|
|
intangible heritage, so that
|
|
they would
|
|
|
|
146
|
|
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,920
|
|
fully grasp the idea of what
|
|
intangible
|
|
|
|
147
|
|
00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,680
|
|
heritage really is and what it
|
|
meant
|
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|
|
148
|
|
00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,080
|
|
and where the convention
|
|
stands for
|
|
where the policy stands for,
|
|
|
|
149
|
|
00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,760
|
|
what it meant for them in
|
|
practice and that it's really
|
|
all
|
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|
|
150
|
|
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,520
|
|
about working together and
|
|
providing a future
|
|
|
|
151
|
|
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,560
|
|
for your intangible cultural
|
|
heritage and keep it
|
|
|
|
152
|
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00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:28,960
|
|
active and alive.
|
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|
|
153
|
|
00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,800
|
|
And it's not about the history
|
|
|
|
154
|
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00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,360
|
|
of heritage but it's more
|
|
about the
|
|
|
|
155
|
|
00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,880
|
|
future. And once they
|
|
|
|
156
|
|
00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,080
|
|
got that idea, then this
|
|
organization
|
|
|
|
157
|
|
00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,960
|
|
also guided them not wrote
|
|
|
|
158
|
|
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,120
|
|
the text, but they guided them
|
|
into the process of
|
|
|
|
159
|
|
00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,640
|
|
"Okay how are you now gonna
|
|
describe it? How
|
|
|
|
160
|
|
00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,800
|
|
would other people describe it
|
|
? Who is involved
|
|
|
|
161
|
|
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,400
|
|
? What actions do you take to
|
|
create
|
|
|
|
162
|
|
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,720
|
|
a future for your intangible
|
|
cultural heritage?".
|
|
|
|
163
|
|
00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,040
|
|
Actually that was a large
|
|
process most of the times.
|
|
|
|
164
|
|
00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,760
|
|
Some people just described
|
|
their heritage
|
|
|
|
165
|
|
00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,480
|
|
and described their community,
|
|
|
|
166
|
|
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,720
|
|
but it was also necessary
|
|
|
|
167
|
|
00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:16,920
|
|
, otherwise you
|
|
couldn't be visible
|
|
|
|
168
|
|
00:08:17,340 --> 00:08:18,640
|
|
in the front of the database, on the website.
|
|
|
|
169
|
|
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,200
|
|
So most of the people really
|
|
did this full process.
|
|
|
|
170
|
|
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,400
|
|
Not everyone. In
|
|
|
|
171
|
|
00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,920
|
|
the end it mostly led to
|
|
|
|
172
|
|
00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,680
|
|
filing requests for also
|
|
|
|
173
|
|
00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,440
|
|
being mentioned on the
|
|
inventory of intangible
|
|
culture.
|
|
|
|
174
|
|
00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,520
|
|
Because of this whole process
|
|
that they had to
|
|
|
|
175
|
|
00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,040
|
|
undertake that
|
|
|
|
176
|
|
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,240
|
|
was usually the outcome.
|
|
|
|
177
|
|
00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,040
|
|
So this was not my role.
|
|
|
|
178
|
|
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,720
|
|
My role was more like OK get
|
|
|
|
179
|
|
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,400
|
|
people involved and explain
|
|
|
|
180
|
|
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,960
|
|
what the process is about and
|
|
refer them to other
|
|
|
|
181
|
|
00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,840
|
|
organizations who then
|
|
|
|
182
|
|
00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:58,960
|
|
did this whole process
|
|
with the people
|
|
|
|
183
|
|
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,960
|
|
and then once they had written
|
|
the texts and have
|
|
|
|
184
|
|
00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,480
|
|
come to a consensus about the
|
|
texts that
|
|
|
|
185
|
|
00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:07,440
|
|
they wrote, then they got back
|
|
to the
|
|
|
|
186
|
|
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,960
|
|
database and started really
|
|
filing in the content.
|
|
|
|
187
|
|
00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,240
|
|
And then I would just make some
|
|
little
|
|
|
|
188
|
|
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,640
|
|
editing stuff or
|
|
|
|
189
|
|
00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,200
|
|
say "Oh maybe it's better to
|
|
use that picture", but
|
|
|
|
190
|
|
00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,560
|
|
my involvement was nothing
|
|
more than that anymore at that
|
|
time.
|
|
|
|
191
|
|
00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,280
|
|
I'm also wondering about the
|
|
part where
|
|
|
|
192
|
|
00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,280
|
|
the different
|
|
parties that were involved had
|
|
to reach a consensus.
|
|
|
|
193
|
|
00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:33,840
|
|
Yeah.
|
|
|
|
194
|
|
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,560
|
|
Are there any traces
|
|
|
|
195
|
|
00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,040
|
|
in the inventory about the
|
|
process -
|
|
|
|
196
|
|
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,200
|
|
of how they reached a consensus
|
|
?
|
|
Mhm. Or
|
|
|
|
197
|
|
00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,560
|
|
of the moments where they
|
|
didn't reach a
|
|
consensus, for example.
|
|
|
|
198
|
|
00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,680
|
|
Not
|
|
|
|
199
|
|
00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,640
|
|
in the database itself,
|
|
because it was
|
|
|
|
200
|
|
00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,680
|
|
a process between people.
|
|
|
|
201
|
|
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,960
|
|
It wasn't a digital process at
|
|
that time.
|
|
|
|
202
|
|
00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,560
|
|
So, the texts that you see
|
|
|
|
203
|
|
00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,880
|
|
on the website that are texts
|
|
that
|
|
|
|
204
|
|
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,520
|
|
they reached a consensus
|
|
about,
|
|
|
|
205
|
|
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,160
|
|
that's the case certainly now
|
|
at this
|
|
|
|
206
|
|
00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:10,320
|
|
point with a new database.
|
|
|
|
207
|
|
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,080
|
|
If someone isn't in consensus
|
|
with how
|
|
|
|
208
|
|
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,720
|
|
it is mentioned, they are free
|
|
and they can upload
|
|
|
|
209
|
|
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,960
|
|
another version and it stands
|
|
next to each other.
|
|
|
|
210
|
|
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,720
|
|
That wasn't the case in the
|
|
previous.
|
|
|
|
211
|
|
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,880
|
|
But now the website is open to
|
|
that.
|
|
|
|
212
|
|
00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,040
|
|
Has anyone actually made use of
|
|
this feature
|
|
|
|
213
|
|
00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,160
|
|
, at least until April 2019?
|
|
|
|
214
|
|
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:30,680
|
|
Yes.
|
|
|
|
215
|
|
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,000
|
|
So far I don't think so.
|
|
|
|
216
|
|
00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,720
|
|
The professionals really played
|
|
|
|
217
|
|
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,560
|
|
the role of mediator the
|
|
|
|
218
|
|
00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,840
|
|
past 6-7 years.
|
|
|
|
219
|
|
00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,640
|
|
That was the idea also
|
|
|
|
220
|
|
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,560
|
|
of the policy to bring people
|
|
|
|
221
|
|
00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,600
|
|
together on intangible
|
|
cultural heritage
|
|
|
|
222
|
|
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,960
|
|
and it all came back from the
|
|
idea they can learn from each
|
|
|
|
223
|
|
00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,640
|
|
other and it strengthens the
|
|
|
|
224
|
|
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,440
|
|
intangible cultural heritage
|
|
if people work together
|
|
|
|
225
|
|
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,200
|
|
and if they share their
|
|
experience and I think for a
|
|
big part
|
|
|
|
226
|
|
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,040
|
|
that's that's really true.
|
|
|
|
227
|
|
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,680
|
|
But you still have different
|
|
voices
|
|
|
|
228
|
|
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,240
|
|
and different meanings and
|
|
when 0 I can
|
|
|
|
229
|
|
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,400
|
|
understand your question when
|
|
it comes to texts.
|
|
|
|
230
|
|
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,200
|
|
People can have another vision
|
|
on
|
|
|
|
231
|
|
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,680
|
|
how something is described or
|
|
if
|
|
|
|
232
|
|
00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,480
|
|
they want to feel connected to
|
|
it, but
|
|
|
|
233
|
|
00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:25,240
|
|
in the past they got to the
|
|
point of a consensus.
|
|
|
|
234
|
|
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,920
|
|
One of the examples that you
|
|
|
|
235
|
|
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,520
|
|
wrote in your email was about
|
|
the Giants,
|
|
|
|
236
|
|
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,040
|
|
but that - actually I am
|
|
actually not the
|
|
|
|
237
|
|
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,520
|
|
person who who can speak
|
|
widely about it,
|
|
|
|
238
|
|
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,080
|
|
because it wasn't one of our
|
|
projects - and the
|
|
organization
|
|
|
|
239
|
|
00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,280
|
|
who has done that this
|
|
was LECA, now they're part of
|
|
Histories.
|
|
|
|
240
|
|
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,080
|
|
They were one of the first and
|
|
actually they had a process
|
|
|
|
241
|
|
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,840
|
|
for 7 or 8, 9 years because
|
|
|
|
242
|
|
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,920
|
|
in France you have a lot of
|
|
giants and
|
|
|
|
243
|
|
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,320
|
|
a lot of small communities
|
|
|
|
244
|
|
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,800
|
|
but actually they're all part
|
|
of a bigger community
|
|
|
|
245
|
|
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,440
|
|
of people who feel
|
|
|
|
246
|
|
00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,960
|
|
strongly about the Giants and
|
|
keep them alive and
|
|
|
|
247
|
|
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,760
|
|
then they said "well we have
|
|
to get those people together".
|
|
|
|
248
|
|
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,360
|
|
And step by step, year by
|
|
year,
|
|
|
|
249
|
|
00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,040
|
|
they started to work with
|
|
these people and
|
|
|
|
250
|
|
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,040
|
|
attract more and more people.
|
|
|
|
251
|
|
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,640
|
|
And support them and actually
|
|
in
|
|
|
|
252
|
|
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,440
|
|
the end they created a lot of
|
|
cells
|
|
|
|
253
|
|
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,520
|
|
in different regions
|
|
with people
|
|
|
|
254
|
|
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,000
|
|
who were more or less
|
|
involved.
|
|
|
|
255
|
|
00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,560
|
|
They organized workshops in
|
|
different regions and so
|
|
|
|
256
|
|
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,480
|
|
a total movement actually
|
|
arose
|
|
|
|
257
|
|
00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:33,000
|
|
and it came to an association
|
|
for the
|
|
|
|
258
|
|
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,120
|
|
whole of Flanders on this
|
|
Giant
|
|
|
|
259
|
|
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:37,440
|
|
culture actually.
|
|
|
|
260
|
|
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,080
|
|
And then they applied for a
|
|
place on
|
|
|
|
261
|
|
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,800
|
|
the inventory as a whole,
|
|
|
|
262
|
|
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,480
|
|
but I have to say before
|
|
|
|
263
|
|
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:48,840
|
|
that smaller communities
|
|
already applied
|
|
|
|
264
|
|
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:50,200
|
|
for an individual
|
|
|
|
265
|
|
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,080
|
|
culture in the city, but
|
|
|
|
266
|
|
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,040
|
|
it felt really strong that now
|
|
they can speak of
|
|
|
|
267
|
|
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,000
|
|
a Giant culture in Flanders.
|
|
|
|
268
|
|
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,160
|
|
Then they tried to
|
|
|
|
269
|
|
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,680
|
|
put the differences
|
|
|
|
270
|
|
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,600
|
|
into the text on this culture
|
|
but of course
|
|
|
|
271
|
|
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,200
|
|
you have smaller aspects of
|
|
|
|
272
|
|
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,720
|
|
culture in a smaller region
|
|
that are different.
|
|
|
|
273
|
|
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,440
|
|
But yes you can find some main
|
|
|
|
274
|
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00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,320
|
|
lines and teams that
|
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275
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00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:21,720
|
|
apply to them all.
|
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276
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00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,320
|
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They did a good job, but
|
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277
|
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00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,160
|
|
people are now certainly also
|
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|
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278
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00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,840
|
|
able to fill in the form
|
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|
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279
|
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00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:31,720
|
|
just on their own culture.
|
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|
280
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00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,960
|
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That's what I'm trying to say
|
|
so we took
|
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|
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281
|
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00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,480
|
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that idea of "there has to be
|
|
a consensus and
|
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|
|
282
|
|
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:40,320
|
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everyone has to work together
|
|
", we
|
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283
|
|
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,920
|
|
took that down a notch in
|
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|
|
284
|
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00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,840
|
|
the second database now.
|
|
|
|
285
|
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00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,560
|
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So now it's more everyone, even
|
|
a small community
|
|
|
|
286
|
|
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,120
|
|
, even a person can fill in a
|
|
form
|
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|
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287
|
|
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,040
|
|
so that the giant of a small
|
|
community
|
|
|
|
288
|
|
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,760
|
|
is also visible on the
|
|
website.
|
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|
|
289
|
|
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,160
|
|
So the two ways
|
|
|
|
290
|
|
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,640
|
|
lie ahead now next to each other in
|
|
the new database.
|
|
Yeah.
|
|
|
|
291
|
|
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,480
|
|
How was this transition made
|
|
? Was the
|
|
|
|
292
|
|
00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:11,240
|
|
focus on a multiplicity
|
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|
|
293
|
|
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,760
|
|
of views coming from
|
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|
|
294
|
|
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,360
|
|
the organization Werk
|
|
plaats Immaterieel Eerfgoed or
|
|
|
|
295
|
|
00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:19,160
|
|
was it coming from the
|
|
Flemish government?
|
|
|
|
296
|
|
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,000
|
|
I think it was
|
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|
|
297
|
|
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,680
|
|
from both ways.
|
|
|
|
298
|
|
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,200
|
|
And there is also another organ
|
|
|
|
299
|
|
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,920
|
|
in this whole process and
|
|
that's a commission
|
|
|
|
300
|
|
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,640
|
|
of experts and
|
|
|
|
301
|
|
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,680
|
|
they advise the minister on
|
|
|
|
302
|
|
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,320
|
|
which elements should be
|
|
|
|
303
|
|
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,480
|
|
on the inventory.
|
|
|
|
304
|
|
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,680
|
|
So they really went over all
|
|
these appliances
|
|
|
|
305
|
|
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,840
|
|
and they also had made some
|
|
|
|
306
|
|
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,720
|
|
evaluations on the topic of
|
|
the
|
|
|
|
307
|
|
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,360
|
|
past years and made some
|
|
suggestions.
|
|
|
|
308
|
|
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,240
|
|
So when the years went by
|
|
|
|
309
|
|
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,440
|
|
faces headed into the same
|
|
direction
|
|
|
|
310
|
|
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,040
|
|
because we all noticed that
|
|
"OK.
|
|
|
|
311
|
|
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,120
|
|
This way of working demands a
|
|
lot of the
|
|
people, ir demands a lot of the
|
|
|
|
312
|
|
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,360
|
|
professionals who are guiding
|
|
them.
|
|
|
|
313
|
|
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,960
|
|
Certainly
|
|
|
|
314
|
|
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,400
|
|
it has has pros, many.
|
|
|
|
315
|
|
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,120
|
|
We have done terrific work on
|
|
that,
|
|
|
|
316
|
|
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,840
|
|
but in terms of
|
|
|
|
317
|
|
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,480
|
|
displaying on a website on
|
|
|
|
318
|
|
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,400
|
|
inventorying ICH in Flanders
|
|
and displaying
|
|
|
|
319
|
|
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,560
|
|
the diversity of ICH in
|
|
Flanders...
|
|
|
|
320
|
|
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,160
|
|
These two processes
|
|
|
|
321
|
|
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,720
|
|
can come together. They're
|
|
just
|
|
|
|
322
|
|
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,080
|
|
counterproductive actually,
|
|
because it
|
|
|
|
323
|
|
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,160
|
|
took such a long time to get
|
|
to a text,
|
|
|
|
324
|
|
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,680
|
|
so they can display it and
|
|
that's not the
|
|
|
|
325
|
|
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,600
|
|
match we're trying to make
|
|
|
|
326
|
|
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,280
|
|
an inventory of ICHin Flanders
|
|
that's
|
|
|
|
327
|
|
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,400
|
|
really diverse also.
|
|
|
|
328
|
|
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,080
|
|
Was this one of the main
|
|
reasons to move to a new
|
|
database?
|
|
|
|
329
|
|
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,160
|
|
Yes it was. Because
|
|
|
|
330
|
|
00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,680
|
|
the old database and the
|
|
content that
|
|
|
|
331
|
|
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,240
|
|
was in the database didn't
|
|
show the
|
|
|
|
332
|
|
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,320
|
|
diversity of ICH in Flanders
|
|
and had problems with that.
|
|
|
|
333
|
|
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,840
|
|
So we made an analysis of what
|
|
is going on
|
|
|
|
334
|
|
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,920
|
|
here and there were a lot of
|
|
technical issues,
|
|
|
|
335
|
|
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,800
|
|
barriers that slow down that
|
|
process
|
|
|
|
336
|
|
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,320
|
|
next to the process on how we
|
|
work with
|
|
|
|
337
|
|
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,840
|
|
the tradition bearers and
|
|
the policy and what they
|
|
|
|
338
|
|
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,760
|
|
demanded of
|
|
|
|
339
|
|
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,400
|
|
work from these volunteers and
|
|
that took a long
|
|
|
|
340
|
|
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,920
|
|
time for them to develop
|
|
|
|
341
|
|
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:36,120
|
|
and this is almost
|
|
counterproductive to the
|
|
inventorying ICH in Flanders.
|
|
|
|
342
|
|
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,400
|
|
And then you create an image of
|
|
ICH in Flanders
|
|
|
|
343
|
|
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,000
|
|
only with the ICH
|
|
|
|
344
|
|
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,160
|
|
of people who already know the
|
|
way to the professional
|
|
organizations.
|
|
|
|
345
|
|
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,920
|
|
And then again when you look at
|
|
look at it
|
|
|
|
346
|
|
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,800
|
|
from the perspective of the
|
|
website only typical
|
|
|
|
347
|
|
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,360
|
|
ICH is presented there.
|
|
|
|
348
|
|
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,960
|
|
So it's a conflict. A lot of
|
|
steps
|
|
|
|
349
|
|
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,880
|
|
had to be taken and you had
|
|
a policy,
|
|
|
|
350
|
|
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,760
|
|
you had the process on how to
|
|
|
|
351
|
|
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,360
|
|
apply for the inventory, that
|
|
are
|
|
|
|
352
|
|
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,600
|
|
all barriers,
|
|
|
|
353
|
|
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,880
|
|
but you also had the digital
|
|
|
|
354
|
|
00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,640
|
|
barriers that were definitely
|
|
|
|
355
|
|
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,880
|
|
a big part of it because it
|
|
was too difficult to work
|
|
with.
|
|
|
|
356
|
|
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,880
|
|
So
|
|
|
|
357
|
|
00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,120
|
|
in one year we worked on the
|
|
three.
|
|
|
|
358
|
|
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,720
|
|
Did you find that being a
|
|
moderator
|
|
|
|
359
|
|
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,080
|
|
for the NGO the
|
|
Werkplaats Immaterieel Erfgoed
|
|
|
|
360
|
|
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,720
|
|
was different from being a
|
|
moderator for elements
|
|
|
|
361
|
|
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,040
|
|
that went on the Flemish
|
|
inventory?
|
|
|
|
362
|
|
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,920
|
|
It's true that my role was
|
|
different than
|
|
|
|
363
|
|
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,200
|
|
other colleagues of mine in
|
|
the NGO.
|
|
|
|
364
|
|
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,120
|
|
And that sometimes it did
|
|
|
|
365
|
|
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,480
|
|
in our day to day work it
|
|
|
|
366
|
|
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,480
|
|
did came up that I was more
|
|
linked to the government.
|
|
|
|
367
|
|
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:53,920
|
|
Or that's how I felt it.
|
|
|
|
368
|
|
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:56,640
|
|
Sometimes I have to say "but no
|
|
Ellen, no, that's not true".
|
|
|
|
369
|
|
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,160
|
|
But I had the feeling that I
|
|
was moderating a
|
|
|
|
370
|
|
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:01,800
|
|
tool of them and
|
|
|
|
371
|
|
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,120
|
|
that is something that I was
|
|
always conscious about.
|
|
|
|
372
|
|
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,360
|
|
It's a very direct line.
|
|
|
|
373
|
|
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,840
|
|
In the work we have done as an
|
|
organization
|
|
|
|
374
|
|
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,480
|
|
, we could more develop our own
|
|
|
|
375
|
|
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,160
|
|
lines and vision on the
|
|
website.
|
|
We could.
|
|
|
|
376
|
|
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,160
|
|
But it's more for working and
|
|
|
|
377
|
|
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:25,960
|
|
finding and way in. Okay how
|
|
far
|
|
|
|
378
|
|
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,360
|
|
can we go as an
|
|
organization whose moderating
|
|
this tool?
|
|
|
|
379
|
|
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,200
|
|
And when do we have to
|
|
|
|
380
|
|
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,760
|
|
ask feedback or approval
|
|
|
|
381
|
|
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,080
|
|
from the government if we want
|
|
to do it like this or like
|
|
that.
|
|
|
|
382
|
|
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,520
|
|
And then I was a person who was
|
|
responsible for that.
|
|
|
|
383
|
|
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,600
|
|
So they felt freer
|
|
in their work
|
|
|
|
384
|
|
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,960
|
|
than I could ever be. Me
|
|
|
|
385
|
|
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:50,840
|
|
personally and as a moderator.
|
|
|
|
386
|
|
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,480
|
|
So yeah it was reflected in my
|
|
|
|
387
|
|
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,200
|
|
my work and that's why I was
|
|
really happy
|
|
|
|
388
|
|
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,800
|
|
that at the end I could guide
|
|
|
|
389
|
|
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,960
|
|
this project as a project
|
|
management to do
|
|
|
|
390
|
|
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,000
|
|
the follow up tool in 2018
|
|
|
|
391
|
|
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,840
|
|
because at that time we could
|
|
as an organization
|
|
|
|
392
|
|
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,480
|
|
and me also my
|
|
|
|
393
|
|
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,320
|
|
personal expertise in
|
|
moderating this website, it
|
|
|
|
394
|
|
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,400
|
|
all could come together.
|
|
|
|
395
|
|
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,000
|
|
And at that time we also built
|
|
up an expertise
|
|
|
|
396
|
|
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,720
|
|
or voice as an organization
|
|
and
|
|
|
|
397
|
|
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,120
|
|
we're stronger than in 2012.
|
|
|
|
398
|
|
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,800
|
|
It was nice to work in
|
|
|
|
399
|
|
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,400
|
|
this way with the government
|
|
so that we could
|
|
|
|
400
|
|
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,000
|
|
develop a tool that everybody
|
|
was happy about.
|
|
|
|
401
|
|
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:36,200
|
|
Yes this is the way forward.
|
|
|
|
402
|
|
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,760
|
|
This is what we need to do to
|
|
|
|
403
|
|
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,000
|
|
turn this around.
|
|
|
|
404
|
|
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,240
|
|
So at the end we were more... I
|
|
was more..
|
|
.
|
|
|
|
405
|
|
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:46,160
|
|
Yeah I could say..
|
|
|
|
406
|
|
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,200
|
|
.
|
|
|
|
407
|
|
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,000
|
|
More colleagues also with the
|
|
government not in a way
|
|
|
|
408
|
|
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,920
|
|
like what my colleagues on the
|
|
Werkplaats,
|
|
|
|
409
|
|
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,520
|
|
but we could speak
|
|
|
|
410
|
|
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,200
|
|
more freely to each other and
|
|
everyone has
|
|
|
|
411
|
|
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,360
|
|
his position and his expertise
|
|
and is valued for that.
|
|
|
|
412
|
|
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,040
|
|
So that was another way of
|
|
working than 6, 7 years before
|
|
that.
|
|
|
|
413
|
|
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:11,240
|
|
How
|
|
|
|
414
|
|
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,120
|
|
do you negotiate the
|
|
differences between
|
|
|
|
415
|
|
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,120
|
|
the official
|
|
Flemish inventory and
|
|
|
|
416
|
|
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,800
|
|
the organization's inventory.
|
|
|
|
417
|
|
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:29,000
|
|
Yeah.
|
|
|
|
418
|
|
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,600
|
|
That's one of the changes that
|
|
was made in
|
|
|
|
419
|
|
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,920
|
|
developing the sector, because
|
|
|
|
420
|
|
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:39,480
|
|
like I said before in the
|
|
first tool the restrictions
|
|
|
|
421
|
|
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,120
|
|
were rather high.
|
|
|
|
422
|
|
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,320
|
|
So there had to be a
|
|
description.
|
|
|
|
423
|
|
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,280
|
|
Of the Intangible Cultural
|
|
Heritage and then it's
|
|
|
|
424
|
|
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,960
|
|
matched with a definition of
|
|
intangible cultural heritage.
|
|
|
|
425
|
|
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,320
|
|
The parameters that are that
|
|
you can find in the
|
|
definition.
|
|
|
|
426
|
|
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,000
|
|
One important one for example
|
|
|
|
427
|
|
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,120
|
|
is: is it still alive
|
|
|
|
428
|
|
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,000
|
|
and active? Are
|
|
|
|
429
|
|
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,840
|
|
people still doing it? Is
|
|
|
|
430
|
|
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,480
|
|
there a future for it? So
|
|
that's one aspect.
|
|
|
|
431
|
|
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,040
|
|
When people enter their
|
|
information that was one of
|
|
the things
|
|
|
|
432
|
|
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,880
|
|
that I would really look into
|
|
|
|
433
|
|
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,400
|
|
and ask extra questions
|
|
whether
|
|
|
|
434
|
|
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,560
|
|
or not it was for the
|
|
inventory or not that was
|
|
|
|
435
|
|
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,680
|
|
for example a very big issue.
|
|
|
|
436
|
|
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,680
|
|
But also as certainly on the
|
|
first
|
|
|
|
437
|
|
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,160
|
|
database people had to
|
|
describe their community.
|
|
|
|
438
|
|
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,280
|
|
And
|
|
|
|
439
|
|
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,880
|
|
the government was really
|
|
strict about it: from they
|
|
have to
|
|
|
|
440
|
|
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,440
|
|
describe their community
|
|
, otherwise they cannot be
|
|
visible in the front.
|
|
|
|
441
|
|
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,160
|
|
So they can be in the back-end,
|
|
they can work on their
|
|
|
|
442
|
|
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,000
|
|
content, but it can only be
|
|
|
|
443
|
|
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,680
|
|
made visible once all this
|
|
information is included.
|
|
|
|
444
|
|
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,640
|
|
One extra was that they had to
|
|
show
|
|
|
|
445
|
|
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,200
|
|
that they already had made
|
|
some
|
|
|
|
446
|
|
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,280
|
|
safeguarding measures.
|
|
|
|
447
|
|
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,560
|
|
So that was three very big
|
|
descriptions, we think.
|
|
|
|
448
|
|
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,120
|
|
Because what also comes up is
|
|
that you have
|
|
|
|
449
|
|
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,240
|
|
to have prior and informed
|
|
consent.
|
|
|
|
450
|
|
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,240
|
|
I don't know if you're familiar
|
|
with that.
|
|
|
|
451
|
|
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,960
|
|
That's something that is strict
|
|
in the convention.
|
|
|
|
452
|
|
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,480
|
|
You have to have prior and
|
|
informed consent to call
|
|
|
|
453
|
|
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,080
|
|
something intangible cultural
|
|
heritage.
|
|
|
|
454
|
|
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,680
|
|
So the government felt really
|
|
strongly
|
|
|
|
455
|
|
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,720
|
|
about and that was a really
|
|
strong restriction
|
|
|
|
456
|
|
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,200
|
|
for me to moderate
|
|
this content
|
|
|
|
457
|
|
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,240
|
|
and that would lead up to
|
|
asking extra
|
|
|
|
458
|
|
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,120
|
|
questions to the people.
|
|
|
|
459
|
|
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,720
|
|
So for 6, 7 years, me
|
|
|
|
460
|
|
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,520
|
|
as a moderator,
|
|
|
|
461
|
|
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,720
|
|
there was almost nothing that
|
|
I could moderate
|
|
|
|
462
|
|
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,240
|
|
and make visible in the front
|
|
|
|
463
|
|
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:46,560
|
|
other than the inventory
|
|
|
|
464
|
|
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,240
|
|
for cultural heritage because
|
|
the standards are so high.
|
|
|
|
465
|
|
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,320
|
|
So there was almost no
|
|
difference.
|
|
|
|
466
|
|
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,960
|
|
And that's something that we
|
|
made notable to
|
|
|
|
467
|
|
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,400
|
|
the government and now the
|
|
restrictions are much lesser.
|
|
|
|
468
|
|
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,160
|
|
So we pulled it apart.
|
|
|
|
469
|
|
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:05,880
|
|
So now people who want to make
|
|
their intangible
|
|
|
|
470
|
|
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,880
|
|
cultural heritage visible they
|
|
can.
|
|
|
|
471
|
|
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,480
|
|
They only have a form.
|
|
|
|
472
|
|
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,720
|
|
And five six questions that
|
|
they had to fill in.
|
|
|
|
473
|
|
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,360
|
|
And then they click a bottom
|
|
where they
|
|
|
|
474
|
|
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,000
|
|
say yes I have read the
|
|
definition
|
|
|
|
475
|
|
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,720
|
|
of intangible cultural
|
|
heritage and this is
|
|
intangible
|
|
|
|
476
|
|
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,000
|
|
cultural heritage to me.
|
|
|
|
477
|
|
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,160
|
|
And that's
|
|
|
|
478
|
|
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:29,120
|
|
also all that the convention
|
|
asks for.
|
|
|
|
479
|
|
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,640
|
|
But the government interpreted
|
|
the
|
|
|
|
480
|
|
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,160
|
|
convention at a very high
|
|
level.
|
|
|
|
481
|
|
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:37,600
|
|
Difficult level.
|
|
|
|
482
|
|
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,480
|
|
So we tried to narrow it down
|
|
|
|
483
|
|
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:46,680
|
|
and split it out.
|
|
|
|
484
|
|
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,520
|
|
The moderator now, he can just
|
|
look
|
|
|
|
485
|
|
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,120
|
|
into the texts that come up on
|
|
|
|
486
|
|
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,720
|
|
this little forum and
|
|
|
|
487
|
|
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,080
|
|
if people are interested in
|
|
|
|
488
|
|
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,720
|
|
applying for the inventory
|
|
they can
|
|
|
|
489
|
|
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,520
|
|
start to fill in another form
|
|
with
|
|
|
|
490
|
|
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,680
|
|
more questions but also easier
|
|
questions
|
|
|
|
491
|
|
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,240
|
|
than ever before to fill in a
|
|
|
|
492
|
|
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,840
|
|
form to apply for the
|
|
inventory and they
|
|
|
|
493
|
|
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,520
|
|
can also
|
|
|
|
494
|
|
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,480
|
|
get in contact with other
|
|
organizations if they wanted.
|
|
|
|
495
|
|
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,720
|
|
But also that is not necessary
|
|
anymore. And
|
|
|
|
496
|
|
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:20,600
|
|
previous times it was
|
|
necessary.
|
|
|
|
497
|
|
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,720
|
|
When
|
|
|
|
498
|
|
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,440
|
|
you made the transition from
|
|
the previous database to the
|
|
new
|
|
|
|
499
|
|
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:28,080
|
|
database,
|
|
what happened with these elements?
|
|
|
|
500
|
|
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,680
|
|
Very important in this
|
|
|
|
501
|
|
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,680
|
|
process was it was not only
|
|
a new database
|
|
|
|
502
|
|
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,440
|
|
, but it was also a new way of
|
|
reporting.
|
|
|
|
503
|
|
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,120
|
|
I don't know if you are
|
|
familiar with that concept
|
|
? That every
|
|
|
|
504
|
|
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,000
|
|
year elements who are on the
|
|
inventory
|
|
|
|
505
|
|
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,640
|
|
, they had to make a report on
|
|
how they
|
|
|
|
506
|
|
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,120
|
|
develop safeguarding measures
|
|
that year and how it has
|
|
evolved.
|
|
|
|
507
|
|
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,960
|
|
And also they were asked to
|
|
|
|
508
|
|
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,800
|
|
look into the description of
|
|
the heritage
|
|
|
|
509
|
|
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,680
|
|
and make changes if something
|
|
|
|
510
|
|
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,040
|
|
changed, or has come up, or
|
|
add something or.
|
|
|
|
511
|
|
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,000
|
|
But not many have done that
|
|
in the past years.
|
|
|
|
512
|
|
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,280
|
|
So we thought well there's a
|
|
new database now.
|
|
|
|
513
|
|
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:15,120
|
|
But it's also a different way
|
|
of working.
|
|
|
|
514
|
|
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,840
|
|
So we kept them informed.
|
|
|
|
515
|
|
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,880
|
|
We thought that was very
|
|
important.
|
|
|
|
516
|
|
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,560
|
|
On the new process, but also
|
|
what we
|
|
|
|
517
|
|
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,080
|
|
were aiming for with this new
|
|
website and
|
|
|
|
518
|
|
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,080
|
|
this new database and actually
|
|
it was the government
|
|
|
|
519
|
|
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:29,640
|
|
who led that process.
|
|
|
|
520
|
|
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,160
|
|
I made suggestions on how to do
|
|
that, but they were in
|
|
|
|
521
|
|
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:34,240
|
|
contact with the communities.
|
|
|
|
522
|
|
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,080
|
|
So we were restricted
|
|
|
|
523
|
|
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,520
|
|
the number of
|
|
characters that a text could
|
|
have
|
|
|
|
524
|
|
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,600
|
|
and a lot of texts were for
|
|
example I'm
|
|
|
|
525
|
|
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,480
|
|
giving you a very straight
|
|
clear example.
|
|
|
|
526
|
|
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,080
|
|
The texts were very long. So we
|
|
narrowed it down
|
|
|
|
527
|
|
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,920
|
|
and we did edit
|
|
|
|
528
|
|
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:57,360
|
|
the texts to make it more web
|
|
friendly
|
|
|
|
529
|
|
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,640
|
|
and then we gave it back to
|
|
the communities,
|
|
|
|
530
|
|
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,160
|
|
we informed that we were going
|
|
to do that and then we gave it
|
|
back to the
|
|
|
|
531
|
|
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:04,680
|
|
communities and we didn't
|
|
|
|
532
|
|
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,600
|
|
enter any new texts before we
|
|
got their consent.
|
|
|
|
533
|
|
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,360
|
|
Looking at the experts from
|
|
their new database
|
|
|
|
534
|
|
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,440
|
|
one column that stands out is
|
|
that of weight,
|
|
|
|
535
|
|
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,040
|
|
referring of course to the
|
|
order in which the elements
|
|
are
|
|
|
|
536
|
|
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:18,960
|
|
displayed on the website.
|
|
|
|
537
|
|
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,440
|
|
And most of the elements seem
|
|
to have a different weight
|
|
from another.
|
|
|
|
538
|
|
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,920
|
|
Could you mention how that
|
|
selection is made?
|
|
|
|
539
|
|
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,560
|
|
The grand idea about the new
|
|
website was all
|
|
|
|
540
|
|
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,640
|
|
diversity, diversity,
|
|
diversity. And we
|
|
|
|
541
|
|
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,120
|
|
wanted to have an impact on
|
|
the image of intangible
|
|
cultural
|
|
|
|
542
|
|
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,160
|
|
heritage and what it all can be
|
|
and is in Flanders
|
|
|
|
543
|
|
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:41,160
|
|
and not only just typical
|
|
Carnival
|
|
|
|
544
|
|
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,120
|
|
and Processions
|
|
|
|
545
|
|
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,520
|
|
but that is much more than
|
|
that.
|
|
|
|
546
|
|
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,680
|
|
So we wanted to have also
|
|
|
|
547
|
|
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,240
|
|
a sort of algorithm, because
|
|
|
|
548
|
|
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,840
|
|
there's only a few elements
|
|
that can be shown
|
|
|
|
549
|
|
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,720
|
|
on the front page and also
|
|
|
|
550
|
|
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,960
|
|
when you enter the part of the
|
|
elements.
|
|
|
|
551
|
|
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,920
|
|
Also there, there is every day
|
|
|
|
552
|
|
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,160
|
|
, every element has a different
|
|
place
|
|
|
|
553
|
|
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:08,440
|
|
in how it's presented.
|
|
|
|
554
|
|
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,160
|
|
It can be on the first page
|
|
it can be the second.
|
|
|
|
555
|
|
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:16,200
|
|
We wanted it also to change to
|
|
have algorithms in the
|
|
database.
|
|
|
|
556
|
|
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,800
|
|
And that's all because we
|
|
wanted to show
|
|
|
|
557
|
|
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,960
|
|
this diversity of elements,
|
|
|
|
558
|
|
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,720
|
|
but we would have done it in a
|
|
full
|
|
|
|
559
|
|
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,800
|
|
automatic way.
|
|
|
|
560
|
|
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,040
|
|
But the budget wasn't
|
|
sufficient enough.
|
|
|
|
561
|
|
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,560
|
|
So the developers came back to
|
|
us
|
|
|
|
562
|
|
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,080
|
|
and said "no we can't do it
|
|
that way but we have another
|
|
idea.
|
|
|
|
563
|
|
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:37,840
|
|
We switch it.
|
|
|
|
564
|
|
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,360
|
|
And with this bar you can give
|
|
|
|
565
|
|
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,160
|
|
it a percentage and then it
|
|
has a lower or higher
|
|
|
|
566
|
|
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:46,000
|
|
chance to come on the front
|
|
page
|
|
|
|
567
|
|
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,280
|
|
or to come on the first or the
|
|
second or the third".
|
|
|
|
568
|
|
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,760
|
|
And when we speak of diversity
|
|
it's on different
|
|
|
|
569
|
|
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,600
|
|
levels: it's the level of the
|
|
different domains
|
|
|
|
570
|
|
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,560
|
|
of cultural heritage.
|
|
|
|
571
|
|
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,400
|
|
It's whether it's heritage
|
|
|
|
572
|
|
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,800
|
|
that takes place in cities or
|
|
|
|
573
|
|
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,560
|
|
in the mainland or that's
|
|
|
|
574
|
|
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,720
|
|
mainly done by elders or by
|
|
youngsters.
|
|
|
|
575
|
|
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,240
|
|
So these differences, we
|
|
|
|
576
|
|
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,400
|
|
wanted to reflect it all.
|
|
|
|
577
|
|
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,960
|
|
And with that in our back of
|
|
our head we would manually
|
|
|
|
578
|
|
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,520
|
|
give it a different percentage
|
|
every month,
|
|
|
|
579
|
|
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,000
|
|
every week.
|