1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,360 For how long were you a moderator? 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:09,280 I started moderating the database in 2012. 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,240 I think it was launched in September 2012, but we 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,840 were involved in the project maybe March-April. 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:23,040 So, at the end of the development, they contacted us. 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,320 'They' are the government - the Flemish government - who 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,520 built this database and website. 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,400 And they attracted us because we had knowledge 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,680 of working with participatory 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,640 ways and methodologies. 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,640 And I worked on it just until 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:47,640 April 2019. 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:49,640 When was the transition to the new database? 14 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,640 The transition happened in 2018 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,840 from the beginning of the year and it was launched in the beginning of December. 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:04,560 What role did the Flemish government play in the development of the database? 17 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:04,240 The first and the second? Yes. 18 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:05,920 Yeah. Well 19 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,200 they are the owners of the database 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,360 and you can say it's a reflection of their policy. 21 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,000 So, their policy on intangible cultural heritage 22 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,040 is totally incorporated in this tool. 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,920 You can see it as a mirror of their policies. 24 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,560 There was a new policy since the end 25 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,080 of 2010, there was a new vision on how 26 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,400 to work with intangible cultural heritage in Flanders. And 27 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,320 2012 was a year that they started really to 28 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,160 develop the policy and put it into practice. 29 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,280 And that professional organizations 30 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,840 in Flanders were 31 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,600 beginning to understand what intangible 32 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:49,880 heritage is and what's it about. 33 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,400 So the government developed a tool to 34 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,040 sustain the work on intangible 35 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:56,040 cultural heritage. 36 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,000 For the volunteers - the 37 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,760 tradition bearers, the ICH intangible cultural heritage bearers - , but 38 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,760 also for the professionals. 39 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,360 Were you also involved in the process of developing the 40 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,960 database? How did you collaborate on that? 41 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,520 In the beginning it was mainly the government itself 42 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:15,840 who developed it. 43 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:17,240 With FARO. 44 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,680 They were mainly involved. 45 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,320 I think also PACKED was involved. 46 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,760 But PACKED was involved later on in the process, together 47 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,680 with us because of 48 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,200 that's an organization who has expertise on 49 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:35,520 digital heritage and we had expertise on participative methods. 50 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,280 So that's why they attracted us both, but 51 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,000 much later in the process. 52 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,120 So there was already a cooperation building the database. 53 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,040 They already had decided what they wanted, who 54 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:47,600 was going to build it. 55 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,920 How did you find the first database? 56 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,000 How did I find it? Interesting... 57 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,960 Challenging... 58 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,200 I was the moderator of the platform. 59 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,760 Then you have already two terms and what I'm 60 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,920 saying now has a very broad meaning. 61 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,240 They said it was a platform on the digital cultural heritage, 62 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,320 but with the word platform they meant it's 63 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,040 not only a digital tool, but 64 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,600 it's also a network of 65 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,240 professionals who are working on intangible 66 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,920 cultural heritage and also the volunteers or the tradition bearers. 67 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,800 So 68 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,960 , following up on that. 69 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,600 My role as a moderator was also 70 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,280 not only - let's say - the web master or 71 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:32,880 the content manager. 72 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,400 But I was also a central 73 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,000 person to this network. 74 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,760 And as an organization we tried to develop 75 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,920 this network the first years: 2012 , 2013, 2014. That was a big part of my job 76 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,120 . 77 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,280 To get this network going. 78 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,720 So I also played a role in that 79 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,320 side and I was the center of 80 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,840 this big network of professionals, 81 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,400 tradition bearers, the government. 82 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,400 And yeah, I was in charge of the 83 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,720 flow of information and guidance 84 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,400 on every aspect and 85 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:10,920 in every way. 86 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,680 Next to content management and webmaster. 87 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,920 The content was created by professionals, 88 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,920 by tradition bearers, but not by me. 89 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,480 I was only an extra gate 90 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,320 who guided them to ask them extra 91 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,640 questions if some information was missing 92 00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:32,200 and we did minimal editing on 93 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,320 the texts before it was put online. 94 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,680 So my interactions were very minimal. 95 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,200 And that's why the term moderator also came up because 96 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,440 that was very clear from the start, that this was my role. 97 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,000 That it was not to intervene too much in the 98 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:53,080 content but just manage it and moderate it. 99 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,800 Maybe you could describe how the process 100 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,520 of adding a new element to the 101 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,160 database goes? 102 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,160 There were different ways 103 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,200 to get in contact with people. 104 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,760 So, it starts with people who 105 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,520 wanted to add their - you say element 106 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,160 I say intangible cultural heritage - to the database. 107 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,600 Some people just heard about the database. 108 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,320 Some people just heard about 109 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,120 the official inventory for intangible cultural heritage in Flanders. 110 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,760 That was usually 111 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,520 the most common that people heard about the inventory 112 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,960 and they eventually came up with the question: how can we 113 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,480 get our intangible cultural heritage on 114 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,200 this list, as they see it on the inventory. 115 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,720 So that was usually the most common question and 116 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,360 how they reached us. 117 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,880 Sometimes it was just us 118 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,000 or other professional organisations, 119 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,000 who contacted people and on the other hand, we also organised some 120 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,720 workshops and stuff like that ; promotional 121 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,200 actions to promote the site and the database. 122 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,360 So that once people decide yes 123 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,000 we want to add our intangible 124 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,280 cultural heritage, they could ask for that. 125 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,640 That was how the process was in 126 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:16,000 the first database. 127 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,480 There it was that they could ask for a login, a 128 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,920 personal one, I would provide it to them. 129 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,760 Then they get access to the actual database. 130 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,080 They have a manual. 131 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:29,800 On how to work with a database with 132 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,200 explanations at the different fields. 133 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,960 What is what is really asked here 134 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,440 and then they could just go ahead. 135 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,360 But what we also did and what we strongly advised 136 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,240 was to have a conversation with one of our colleague 137 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,760 organizations that 138 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:47,720 was linked to their intangible culture. 139 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:53,240 To make it more clear, let's say, someone 140 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,840 who would want to add Carnival or something 141 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,440 like that, then we would guide them through an organization 142 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,080 who worked on social traditions 143 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:04,600 and that organization would have a conversation with 144 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,800 them on what is intangible heritage. 145 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,320 What is a policy on intangible heritage, so that they would 146 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,920 fully grasp the idea of what intangible 147 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,680 heritage really is and what it meant 148 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,080 and where the convention stands for where the policy stands for, 149 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,760 what it meant for them in practice and that it's really all 150 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,520 about working together and providing a future 151 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,560 for your intangible cultural heritage and keep it 152 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:28,960 active and alive. 153 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,800 And it's not about the history 154 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,360 of heritage but it's more about the 155 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,880 future. And once they 156 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,080 got that idea, then this organization 157 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,960 also guided them not wrote 158 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,120 the text, but they guided them into the process of 159 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,640 "Okay how are you now gonna describe it? How 160 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,800 would other people describe it ? Who is involved 161 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,400 ? What actions do you take to create 162 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,720 a future for your intangible cultural heritage?". 163 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,040 Actually that was a large process most of the times. 164 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,760 Some people just described their heritage 165 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,480 and described their community, 166 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,720 but it was also necessary 167 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:16,920 , otherwise you couldn't be visible 168 00:08:17,340 --> 00:08:18,640 in the front of the database, on the website. 169 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,200 So most of the people really did this full process. 170 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,400 Not everyone. In 171 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,920 the end it mostly led to 172 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,680 filing requests for also 173 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,440 being mentioned on the inventory of intangible culture. 174 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,520 Because of this whole process that they had to 175 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,040 undertake that 176 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,240 was usually the outcome. 177 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,040 So this was not my role. 178 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,720 My role was more like OK get 179 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,400 people involved and explain 180 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,960 what the process is about and refer them to other 181 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,840 organizations who then 182 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:58,960 did this whole process with the people 183 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,960 and then once they had written the texts and have 184 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,480 come to a consensus about the texts that 185 00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:07,440 they wrote, then they got back to the 186 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,960 database and started really filing in the content. 187 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,240 And then I would just make some little 188 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,640 editing stuff or 189 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,200 say "Oh maybe it's better to use that picture", but 190 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,560 my involvement was nothing more than that anymore at that time. 191 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,280 I'm also wondering about the part where 192 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,280 the different parties that were involved had to reach a consensus. 193 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:33,840 Yeah. 194 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,560 Are there any traces 195 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,040 in the inventory about the process - 196 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,200 of how they reached a consensus ? Mhm. Or 197 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,560 of the moments where they didn't reach a consensus, for example. 198 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,680 Not 199 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,640 in the database itself, because it was 200 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,680 a process between people. 201 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,960 It wasn't a digital process at that time. 202 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,560 So, the texts that you see 203 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,880 on the website that are texts that 204 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,520 they reached a consensus about, 205 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,160 that's the case certainly now at this 206 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:10,320 point with a new database. 207 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,080 If someone isn't in consensus with how 208 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,720 it is mentioned, they are free and they can upload 209 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,960 another version and it stands next to each other. 210 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,720 That wasn't the case in the previous. 211 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,880 But now the website is open to that. 212 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,040 Has anyone actually made use of this feature 213 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,160 , at least until April 2019? 214 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:30,680 Yes. 215 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,000 So far I don't think so. 216 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,720 The professionals really played 217 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,560 the role of mediator the 218 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,840 past 6-7 years. 219 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,640 That was the idea also 220 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,560 of the policy to bring people 221 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,600 together on intangible cultural heritage 222 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,960 and it all came back from the idea they can learn from each 223 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,640 other and it strengthens the 224 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,440 intangible cultural heritage if people work together 225 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,200 and if they share their experience and I think for a big part 226 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,040 that's that's really true. 227 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,680 But you still have different voices 228 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,240 and different meanings and when 0 I can 229 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,400 understand your question when it comes to texts. 230 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,200 People can have another vision on 231 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,680 how something is described or if 232 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,480 they want to feel connected to it, but 233 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:25,240 in the past they got to the point of a consensus. 234 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,920 One of the examples that you 235 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,520 wrote in your email was about the Giants, 236 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,040 but that - actually I am actually not the 237 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,520 person who who can speak widely about it, 238 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,080 because it wasn't one of our projects - and the organization 239 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,280 who has done that this was LECA, now they're part of Histories. 240 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,080 They were one of the first and actually they had a process 241 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,840 for 7 or 8, 9 years because 242 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,920 in France you have a lot of giants and 243 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,320 a lot of small communities 244 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,800 but actually they're all part of a bigger community 245 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,440 of people who feel 246 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,960 strongly about the Giants and keep them alive and 247 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,760 then they said "well we have to get those people together". 248 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,360 And step by step, year by year, 249 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,040 they started to work with these people and 250 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,040 attract more and more people. 251 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,640 And support them and actually in 252 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,440 the end they created a lot of cells 253 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,520 in different regions with people 254 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,000 who were more or less involved. 255 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,560 They organized workshops in different regions and so 256 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,480 a total movement actually arose 257 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:33,000 and it came to an association for the 258 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,120 whole of Flanders on this Giant 259 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:37,440 culture actually. 260 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,080 And then they applied for a place on 261 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,800 the inventory as a whole, 262 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,480 but I have to say before 263 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:48,840 that smaller communities already applied 264 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:50,200 for an individual 265 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,080 culture in the city, but 266 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,040 it felt really strong that now they can speak of 267 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,000 a Giant culture in Flanders. 268 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,160 Then they tried to 269 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,680 put the differences 270 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,600 into the text on this culture but of course 271 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,200 you have smaller aspects of 272 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,720 culture in a smaller region that are different. 273 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,440 But yes you can find some main 274 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,320 lines and teams that 275 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:21,720 apply to them all. 276 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,320 They did a good job, but 277 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,160 people are now certainly also 278 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,840 able to fill in the form 279 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:31,720 just on their own culture. 280 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,960 That's what I'm trying to say so we took 281 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,480 that idea of "there has to be a consensus and 282 00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:40,320 everyone has to work together ", we 283 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,920 took that down a notch in 284 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,840 the second database now. 285 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,560 So now it's more everyone, even a small community 286 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,120 , even a person can fill in a form 287 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,040 so that the giant of a small community 288 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,760 is also visible on the website. 289 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,160 So the two ways 290 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,640 lie ahead now next to each other in the new database. Yeah. 291 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,480 How was this transition made ? Was the 292 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:11,240 focus on a multiplicity 293 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,760 of views coming from 294 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,360 the organization Werk plaats Immaterieel Eerfgoed or 295 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:19,160 was it coming from the Flemish government? 296 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,000 I think it was 297 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,680 from both ways. 298 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,200 And there is also another organ 299 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,920 in this whole process and that's a commission 300 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,640 of experts and 301 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,680 they advise the minister on 302 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,320 which elements should be 303 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,480 on the inventory. 304 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,680 So they really went over all these appliances 305 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,840 and they also had made some 306 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,720 evaluations on the topic of the 307 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,360 past years and made some suggestions. 308 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,240 So when the years went by 309 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,440 faces headed into the same direction 310 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,040 because we all noticed that "OK. 311 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,120 This way of working demands a lot of the people, ir demands a lot of the 312 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,360 professionals who are guiding them. 313 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,960 Certainly 314 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,400 it has has pros, many. 315 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,120 We have done terrific work on that, 316 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,840 but in terms of 317 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,480 displaying on a website on 318 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,400 inventorying ICH in Flanders and displaying 319 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,560 the diversity of ICH in Flanders... 320 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,160 These two processes 321 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,720 can come together. They're just 322 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,080 counterproductive actually, because it 323 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,160 took such a long time to get to a text, 324 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,680 so they can display it and that's not the 325 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,600 match we're trying to make 326 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,280 an inventory of ICHin Flanders that's 327 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,400 really diverse also. 328 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,080 Was this one of the main reasons to move to a new database? 329 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,160 Yes it was. Because 330 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,680 the old database and the content that 331 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,240 was in the database didn't show the 332 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,320 diversity of ICH in Flanders and had problems with that. 333 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,840 So we made an analysis of what is going on 334 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,920 here and there were a lot of technical issues, 335 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,800 barriers that slow down that process 336 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,320 next to the process on how we work with 337 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,840 the tradition bearers and the policy and what they 338 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,760 demanded of 339 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,400 work from these volunteers and that took a long 340 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,920 time for them to develop 341 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:36,120 and this is almost counterproductive to the inventorying ICH in Flanders. 342 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,400 And then you create an image of ICH in Flanders 343 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,000 only with the ICH 344 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,160 of people who already know the way to the professional organizations. 345 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,920 And then again when you look at look at it 346 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,800 from the perspective of the website only typical 347 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,360 ICH is presented there. 348 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,960 So it's a conflict. A lot of steps 349 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,880 had to be taken and you had a policy, 350 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,760 you had the process on how to 351 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,360 apply for the inventory, that are 352 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,600 all barriers, 353 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,880 but you also had the digital 354 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,640 barriers that were definitely 355 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,880 a big part of it because it was too difficult to work with. 356 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,880 So 357 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,120 in one year we worked on the three. 358 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,720 Did you find that being a moderator 359 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,080 for the NGO the Werkplaats Immaterieel Erfgoed 360 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,720 was different from being a moderator for elements 361 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,040 that went on the Flemish inventory? 362 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,920 It's true that my role was different than 363 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,200 other colleagues of mine in the NGO. 364 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,120 And that sometimes it did 365 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,480 in our day to day work it 366 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,480 did came up that I was more linked to the government. 367 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:53,920 Or that's how I felt it. 368 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:56,640 Sometimes I have to say "but no Ellen, no, that's not true". 369 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,160 But I had the feeling that I was moderating a 370 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:01,800 tool of them and 371 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,120 that is something that I was always conscious about. 372 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,360 It's a very direct line. 373 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,840 In the work we have done as an organization 374 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,480 , we could more develop our own 375 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,160 lines and vision on the website. We could. 376 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,160 But it's more for working and 377 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:25,960 finding and way in. Okay how far 378 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,360 can we go as an organization whose moderating this tool? 379 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,200 And when do we have to 380 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,760 ask feedback or approval 381 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,080 from the government if we want to do it like this or like that. 382 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,520 And then I was a person who was responsible for that. 383 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,600 So they felt freer in their work 384 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,960 than I could ever be. Me 385 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:50,840 personally and as a moderator. 386 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,480 So yeah it was reflected in my 387 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,200 my work and that's why I was really happy 388 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,800 that at the end I could guide 389 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,960 this project as a project management to do 390 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,000 the follow up tool in 2018 391 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,840 because at that time we could as an organization 392 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,480 and me also my 393 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,320 personal expertise in moderating this website, it 394 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,400 all could come together. 395 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,000 And at that time we also built up an expertise 396 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,720 or voice as an organization and 397 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,120 we're stronger than in 2012. 398 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,800 It was nice to work in 399 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,400 this way with the government so that we could 400 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,000 develop a tool that everybody was happy about. 401 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:36,200 Yes this is the way forward. 402 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,760 This is what we need to do to 403 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,000 turn this around. 404 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,240 So at the end we were more... I was more.. . 405 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:46,160 Yeah I could say.. 406 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,200 . 407 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,000 More colleagues also with the government not in a way 408 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,920 like what my colleagues on the Werkplaats, 409 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,520 but we could speak 410 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,200 more freely to each other and everyone has 411 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,360 his position and his expertise and is valued for that. 412 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,040 So that was another way of working than 6, 7 years before that. 413 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:11,240 How 414 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,120 do you negotiate the differences between 415 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,120 the official Flemish inventory and 416 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,800 the organization's inventory. 417 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:29,000 Yeah. 418 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,600 That's one of the changes that was made in 419 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,920 developing the sector, because 420 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:39,480 like I said before in the first tool the restrictions 421 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,120 were rather high. 422 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,320 So there had to be a description. 423 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,280 Of the Intangible Cultural Heritage and then it's 424 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,960 matched with a definition of intangible cultural heritage. 425 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,320 The parameters that are that you can find in the definition. 426 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,000 One important one for example 427 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,120 is: is it still alive 428 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,000 and active? Are 429 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,840 people still doing it? Is 430 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,480 there a future for it? So that's one aspect. 431 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,040 When people enter their information that was one of the things 432 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,880 that I would really look into 433 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,400 and ask extra questions whether 434 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,560 or not it was for the inventory or not that was 435 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,680 for example a very big issue. 436 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,680 But also as certainly on the first 437 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,160 database people had to describe their community. 438 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,280 And 439 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,880 the government was really strict about it: from they have to 440 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,440 describe their community , otherwise they cannot be visible in the front. 441 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,160 So they can be in the back-end, they can work on their 442 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,000 content, but it can only be 443 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,680 made visible once all this information is included. 444 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,640 One extra was that they had to show 445 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,200 that they already had made some 446 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,280 safeguarding measures. 447 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,560 So that was three very big descriptions, we think. 448 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,120 Because what also comes up is that you have 449 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,240 to have prior and informed consent. 450 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,240 I don't know if you're familiar with that. 451 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,960 That's something that is strict in the convention. 452 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,480 You have to have prior and informed consent to call 453 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,080 something intangible cultural heritage. 454 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,680 So the government felt really strongly 455 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,720 about and that was a really strong restriction 456 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,200 for me to moderate this content 457 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,240 and that would lead up to asking extra 458 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,120 questions to the people. 459 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,720 So for 6, 7 years, me 460 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,520 as a moderator, 461 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,720 there was almost nothing that I could moderate 462 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,240 and make visible in the front 463 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:46,560 other than the inventory 464 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,240 for cultural heritage because the standards are so high. 465 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,320 So there was almost no difference. 466 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,960 And that's something that we made notable to 467 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,400 the government and now the restrictions are much lesser. 468 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,160 So we pulled it apart. 469 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:05,880 So now people who want to make their intangible 470 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,880 cultural heritage visible they can. 471 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,480 They only have a form. 472 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,720 And five six questions that they had to fill in. 473 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,360 And then they click a bottom where they 474 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,000 say yes I have read the definition 475 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,720 of intangible cultural heritage and this is intangible 476 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,000 cultural heritage to me. 477 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,160 And that's 478 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:29,120 also all that the convention asks for. 479 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,640 But the government interpreted the 480 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,160 convention at a very high level. 481 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:37,600 Difficult level. 482 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,480 So we tried to narrow it down 483 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:46,680 and split it out. 484 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,520 The moderator now, he can just look 485 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,120 into the texts that come up on 486 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,720 this little forum and 487 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,080 if people are interested in 488 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,720 applying for the inventory they can 489 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,520 start to fill in another form with 490 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,680 more questions but also easier questions 491 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,240 than ever before to fill in a 492 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,840 form to apply for the inventory and they 493 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,520 can also 494 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,480 get in contact with other organizations if they wanted. 495 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,720 But also that is not necessary anymore. And 496 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:20,600 previous times it was necessary. 497 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,720 When 498 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,440 you made the transition from the previous database to the new 499 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:28,080 database, what happened with these elements? 500 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,680 Very important in this 501 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,680 process was it was not only a new database 502 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,440 , but it was also a new way of reporting. 503 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,120 I don't know if you are familiar with that concept ? That every 504 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,000 year elements who are on the inventory 505 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,640 , they had to make a report on how they 506 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,120 develop safeguarding measures that year and how it has evolved. 507 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,960 And also they were asked to 508 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,800 look into the description of the heritage 509 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,680 and make changes if something 510 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,040 changed, or has come up, or add something or. 511 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,000 But not many have done that in the past years. 512 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,280 So we thought well there's a new database now. 513 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:15,120 But it's also a different way of working. 514 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,840 So we kept them informed. 515 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,880 We thought that was very important. 516 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,560 On the new process, but also what we 517 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,080 were aiming for with this new website and 518 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,080 this new database and actually it was the government 519 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:29,640 who led that process. 520 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,160 I made suggestions on how to do that, but they were in 521 00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:34,240 contact with the communities. 522 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,080 So we were restricted 523 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,520 the number of characters that a text could have 524 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,600 and a lot of texts were for example I'm 525 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,480 giving you a very straight clear example. 526 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,080 The texts were very long. So we narrowed it down 527 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,920 and we did edit 528 00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:57,360 the texts to make it more web friendly 529 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,640 and then we gave it back to the communities, 530 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,160 we informed that we were going to do that and then we gave it back to the 531 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:04,680 communities and we didn't 532 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,600 enter any new texts before we got their consent. 533 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,360 Looking at the experts from their new database 534 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,440 one column that stands out is that of weight, 535 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,040 referring of course to the order in which the elements are 536 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:18,960 displayed on the website. 537 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,440 And most of the elements seem to have a different weight from another. 538 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,920 Could you mention how that selection is made? 539 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,560 The grand idea about the new website was all 540 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,640 diversity, diversity, diversity. And we 541 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,120 wanted to have an impact on the image of intangible cultural 542 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,160 heritage and what it all can be and is in Flanders 543 00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:41,160 and not only just typical Carnival 544 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,120 and Processions 545 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,520 but that is much more than that. 546 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,680 So we wanted to have also 547 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,240 a sort of algorithm, because 548 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,840 there's only a few elements that can be shown 549 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,720 on the front page and also 550 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,960 when you enter the part of the elements. 551 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,920 Also there, there is every day 552 00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,160 , every element has a different place 553 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:08,440 in how it's presented. 554 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,160 It can be on the first page it can be the second. 555 00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:16,200 We wanted it also to change to have algorithms in the database. 556 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,800 And that's all because we wanted to show 557 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,960 this diversity of elements, 558 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,720 but we would have done it in a full 559 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,800 automatic way. 560 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,040 But the budget wasn't sufficient enough. 561 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,560 So the developers came back to us 562 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,080 and said "no we can't do it that way but we have another idea. 563 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:37,840 We switch it. 564 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,360 And with this bar you can give 565 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,160 it a percentage and then it has a lower or higher 566 00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:46,000 chance to come on the front page 567 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,280 or to come on the first or the second or the third". 568 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,760 And when we speak of diversity it's on different 569 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,600 levels: it's the level of the different domains 570 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,560 of cultural heritage. 571 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,400 It's whether it's heritage 572 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,800 that takes place in cities or 573 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,560 in the mainland or that's 574 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,720 mainly done by elders or by youngsters. 575 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,240 So these differences, we 576 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,400 wanted to reflect it all. 577 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,960 And with that in our back of our head we would manually 578 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,520 give it a different percentage every month, 579 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,000 every week.