diversions/interview/interview-with-ellen_v3.mp3.txt

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For how long were you a
moderator?

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I started
moderating the database in 2012.

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I think it was launched in
September 2012, but we

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were involved in the project
maybe March-April.

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So, at the end of the
development, they contacted
us.

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'They' are the
government - the Flemish government - who

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built this database and
website.

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And they attracted us because
we had knowledge

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of working with participatory

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ways and methodologies.

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And I worked on it just until

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April 2019.

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When was the transition to the
new database?

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The transition happened in 2018

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from the beginning of the year
and it was launched in the
beginning of December.

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What role did the Flemish
government play in the development of the
database?

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The first and the second?
Yes.

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Yeah.  Well

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they are the owners of the
database

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and you can say it's a
reflection of their policy.

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So, their policy on intangible
cultural heritage

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is totally incorporated in
this tool.

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You can see it as a mirror of
their policies.

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There was a new policy since
the end

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of 2010, there was a new
vision on how

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to work with intangible
cultural heritage in
Flanders. And

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2012 was a year that they
started really to

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develop the policy and put it
into practice.

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And that professional
organizations

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in Flanders were

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beginning to understand what
intangible

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heritage is and what's it
about.

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So the government developed a
tool to

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sustain the work on intangible

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cultural heritage.

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For the volunteers - the

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tradition
bearers, the ICH intangible cultural heritage bearers - , but

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also for the professionals.

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Were you also involved in the
process of developing the

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database? How did you
collaborate on that?

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In the beginning it was mainly
the government itself

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who developed it.

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With FARO.

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They were mainly involved.

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I think also PACKED was
involved.

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But PACKED was involved later
on in the process, together

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with us because of

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that's an organization who has
expertise on

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digital heritage and we had
expertise on
participative methods.

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So that's why they attracted
us both, but

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much later in the process.

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So there was already
a cooperation building the
database.

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They already had decided what
they wanted, who

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was going to build it.

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How did you find the first
database?

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How did I find it?
Interesting...

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Challenging...

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I was the moderator of the
platform.

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Then you have already two terms
and what I'm

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saying now has a very broad
meaning.

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They said it was a platform on
the digital cultural heritage,

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but
with the word platform they
meant it's

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not only a digital tool, but

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it's also a network of

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professionals who are working
on intangible

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cultural heritage and also
the volunteers
or the tradition bearers.

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So

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, following up on that.

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My role as a moderator was also

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not only - let's say -
the web master or

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the content manager.

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But I was also a central

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person to this network.

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And as an organization we tried
to develop

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this network the first
years: 2012
, 2013, 2014. That was a big part of my job

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.

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To get this network going.

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So I also played a role in that

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side and I was the center of

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this big network of
professionals,

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tradition bearers, the
government.

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And yeah, I was in charge of
the

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flow of information and
guidance

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on every aspect and

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in every way.

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Next to content management
and webmaster.

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The content was created by
professionals,

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by tradition bearers, but not
by me.

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I was only an extra gate

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who guided them to ask them
extra

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questions if some information
was missing

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and we did minimal editing on

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the texts before it
was put online.

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So my interactions were very
minimal.

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And that's why the term
moderator also came up because

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that was very clear from the
start, that this was my role.

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That it was not to intervene
too much in the

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content but just manage it and
moderate it.

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00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,800
Maybe you could describe how
the process

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of adding a new element to the

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database goes?

102
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There were different ways

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to get in contact with people.

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So, it starts with people who

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wanted to add their - you say
element

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I say
intangible cultural heritage -
to the database.

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Some people just heard
about the database.

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Some people just heard about

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the official inventory for
intangible cultural heritage
in Flanders.

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That was usually

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the most common that people
heard about the inventory

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and they eventually came up
with the question: how can we

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get our intangible cultural
heritage on

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this list, as they see it on
the inventory.

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So that was usually the most
common question and

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how they reached us.

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Sometimes it was just us

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or other professional
organisations,

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who contacted people and on the
other hand, we also organised
some

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workshops and stuff like that
; promotional

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actions to promote the site
and the database.

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So that once people decide yes

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we want to add our intangible

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cultural heritage, they could
ask for that.

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That was how the process was in

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the first database.

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There it was that they could
ask for a login, a

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personal one, I would provide
it to them.

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Then they get access to the
actual database.

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They have a manual.

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On how to work with a database
with

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explanations at the different
fields.

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What is what is really asked
here

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and then they could just go
ahead.

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But what we also did and what
we strongly advised

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was to have a conversation
with one of our colleague

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organizations that

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was linked to their intangible
culture.

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To make it more clear, let's
say, someone

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who would want to add Carnival
or something

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like that, then we would guide
them through an organization

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who worked on social traditions

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and that organization would
have a conversation with

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them on what is intangible
heritage.

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What is a policy on
intangible heritage, so that
they would

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fully grasp the idea of what
intangible

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heritage really is and what it
meant

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and where the convention
stands for
where the policy stands for,

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what it meant for them in
practice and that it's really
all

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about working together and
providing a future

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for your intangible cultural
heritage and keep it

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active and alive.

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And it's not about the history

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of heritage but it's more
about the

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future. And once they

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got that idea, then this
organization

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also guided them not wrote

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the text, but they guided them
into the process of

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"Okay how are you now gonna
describe it? How

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would other people describe it
? Who is involved

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? What actions do you take to
create

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a future for your intangible
cultural heritage?".

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Actually that was a large
process most of the times.

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Some people just described
their heritage

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and described their community,

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but it was also necessary

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, otherwise you
couldn't be visible

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in the front of the database, on the website.

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So most of the people really
did this full process.

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Not everyone. In

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the end it mostly led to

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filing requests for also

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being mentioned on the
inventory of intangible
culture.

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Because of this whole process
that they had to

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undertake that

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was usually the outcome.

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So this was not my role.

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My role was more like OK get

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people involved and explain

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what the process is about and
refer them to other

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organizations who then

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did this whole process
with the people

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and then once they had written
the texts and have

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come to a consensus about the
texts that

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they wrote, then they got back
to the

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database and started really
filing in the content.

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And then I would just make some
little

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editing stuff or

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say "Oh maybe it's better to
use that picture", but

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my involvement was nothing
more than that anymore at that
time.

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I'm also wondering about the
part where

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the different
parties that were involved had
to reach a consensus.

193
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Yeah.

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Are there any traces

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in the inventory about the
process -

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of how they reached a consensus
?
Mhm. Or

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of the moments where they
didn't reach a
consensus, for example.

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Not

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in the database itself,
because it was

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a process between people.

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It wasn't a digital process at
that time.

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So, the texts that you see

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on the website that are texts
that

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they reached a consensus
about,

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that's the case certainly now
at this

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point with a new database.

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00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,080
If someone isn't in consensus
with how

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it is mentioned, they are free
and they can upload

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another version and it stands
next to each other.

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That wasn't the case in the
previous.

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But now the website is open to
that.

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Has anyone actually made use of
this feature

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, at least until April 2019?

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Yes.

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So far I don't think so.

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The professionals really played

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the role of mediator the

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past 6-7 years.

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That was the idea also

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of the policy to bring people

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together on intangible
cultural heritage

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and it all came back from the
idea they can learn from each

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other and it strengthens the

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intangible cultural heritage
if people work together

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and if they share their
experience and I think for a
big part

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that's that's really true.

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00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,680
But you still have different
voices

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and different meanings and
when 0 I can

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understand your question when
it comes to texts.

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People can have another vision
on

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how something is described or
if

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they want to feel connected to
it, but

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in the past they got to the
point of a consensus.

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One of the examples that you

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wrote in your email was about
the Giants,

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but that - actually I am
actually not the

237
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person who who can speak
widely about it,

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because it wasn't one of our
projects - and the
organization

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00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,280
who has done that this
was LECA, now they're part of
Histories.

240
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They were one of the first and
actually they had a process

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00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,840
for 7 or 8, 9 years because

242
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,920
in France you have a lot of
giants and

243
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,320
a lot of small communities

244
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,800
but actually they're all part
of a bigger community

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of people who feel

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00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,960
strongly about the Giants and
keep them alive and

247
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then they said "well we have
to get those people together".

248
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,360
And step by step, year by
year,

249
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they started to work with
these people and

250
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,040
attract more and more people.

251
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,640
And support them and actually
in

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the end they created a lot of
cells

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in different regions
with people

254
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,000
who were more or less
involved.

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00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,560
They organized workshops in
different regions and so

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00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,480
a total movement actually
arose

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00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:33,000
and it came to an association
for the

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00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,120
whole of Flanders on this
Giant

259
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:37,440
culture actually.

260
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,080
And then they applied for a
place on

261
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,800
the inventory as a whole,

262
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,480
but I have to say before

263
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:48,840
that smaller communities
already applied

264
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:50,200
for an individual

265
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,080
culture in the city, but

266
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,040
it felt really strong that now
they can speak of

267
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,000
a Giant culture in Flanders.

268
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,160
Then they tried to

269
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,680
put the differences

270
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,600
into the text on this culture
but of course

271
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,200
you have smaller aspects of

272
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,720
culture in a smaller region
that are different.

273
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,440
But yes you can find some main

274
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,320
lines and teams that

275
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:21,720
apply to them all.

276
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,320
They did a good job, but

277
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,160
people are now certainly also

278
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,840
able to fill in the form

279
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:31,720
just on their own culture.

280
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,960
That's what I'm trying to say
so we took

281
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,480
that idea of "there has to be
a consensus and

282
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:40,320
everyone has to work together
", we

283
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,920
took that down a notch in

284
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,840
the second database now.

285
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,560
So now it's more everyone, even
a small community

286
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,120
, even a person can fill in a
form

287
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,040
so that the giant of a small
community

288
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,760
is also visible on the
website.

289
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,160
So the two ways

290
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,640
lie ahead now next to each other in
the new database.
Yeah.

291
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,480
How was this transition made
? Was the

292
00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:11,240
focus on a multiplicity

293
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,760
of views coming from

294
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,360
the organization Werk
plaats Immaterieel Eerfgoed or

295
00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:19,160
was it coming from the
Flemish government?

296
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,000
I think it was

297
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,680
from both ways.

298
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,200
And there is also another organ

299
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,920
in this whole process and
that's a commission

300
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,640
of experts and

301
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,680
they advise the minister on

302
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,320
which elements should be

303
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,480
on the inventory.

304
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,680
So they really went over all
these appliances

305
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,840
and they also had made some

306
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,720
evaluations on the topic of
the

307
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,360
past years and made some
suggestions.

308
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,240
So when the years went by

309
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,440
faces headed into the same
direction

310
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,040
because we all noticed that
"OK.

311
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,120
This way of working demands a
lot of the
people, ir demands a lot of the

312
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,360
professionals who are guiding
them.

313
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,960
Certainly

314
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,400
it has has pros, many.

315
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,120
We have done terrific work on
that,

316
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,840
but in terms of

317
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,480
displaying on a website on

318
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,400
inventorying ICH in Flanders
and displaying

319
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,560
the diversity of ICH in
Flanders...

320
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,160
These two processes

321
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,720
can come together. They're
just

322
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,080
counterproductive actually,
because it

323
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,160
took such a long time to get
to a text,

324
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,680
so they can display it and
that's not the

325
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,600
match we're trying to make

326
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,280
an inventory of ICHin Flanders
that's

327
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,400
really diverse also.

328
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,080
Was this one of the main
reasons to move to a new
database?

329
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,160
Yes it was. Because

330
00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,680
the old database and the
content that

331
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,240
was in the database didn't
show the

332
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,320
diversity of ICH in Flanders
and had problems with that.

333
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,840
So we made an analysis of what
is going on

334
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,920
here and there were a lot of
technical issues,

335
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,800
barriers that slow down that
process

336
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,320
next to the process on how we
work with

337
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,840
the tradition bearers and
the policy and what they

338
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,760
demanded of

339
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,400
work from these volunteers and
that took a long

340
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,920
time for them to develop

341
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:36,120
and this is almost
counterproductive to the
inventorying ICH in Flanders.

342
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,400
And then you create an image of
ICH in Flanders

343
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,000
only with the ICH

344
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,160
of people who already know the
way to the professional
organizations.

345
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,920
And then again when you look at
look at it

346
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,800
from the perspective of the
website only typical

347
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,360
ICH is presented there.

348
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,960
So it's a conflict. A lot of
steps

349
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,880
had to be taken and you had
a policy,

350
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,760
you had  the process on how to

351
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,360
apply for the inventory, that
are

352
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,600
all barriers,

353
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,880
but you also had the digital

354
00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,640
barriers that were definitely

355
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,880
a big part of it because it
was too difficult to work
with.

356
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,880
So

357
00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,120
in one year we worked on the
three.

358
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,720
Did you find that being a
moderator

359
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,080
for the NGO the
Werkplaats Immaterieel Erfgoed

360
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,720
was different from being a
moderator for elements

361
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,040
that went on the Flemish
inventory?

362
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,920
It's true that my role was
different than

363
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,200
other colleagues of mine in
the NGO.

364
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,120
And that sometimes it did

365
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,480
in our day to day work it

366
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,480
did came up that I was more
linked to the government.

367
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:53,920
Or that's how I felt it.

368
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:56,640
Sometimes I have to say "but no
Ellen, no, that's not true".

369
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,160
But I had the feeling that I
was moderating a

370
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:01,800
tool of them and

371
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,120
that is something that I was
always conscious about.

372
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,360
It's a very direct line.

373
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,840
In the work we have done as an
organization

374
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,480
, we could more develop our own

375
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,160
lines and vision on the
website.
We could.

376
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,160
But it's more for working and

377
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:25,960
finding and way in. Okay how
far

378
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,360
can we go as an
organization whose moderating
this tool?

379
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,200
And when do we have to

380
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,760
ask feedback or approval

381
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,080
from the government if we want
to do it like this or like
that.

382
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,520
And then I was a person who was
responsible for that.

383
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,600
So they felt freer
in their work

384
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,960
than I could ever be. Me

385
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:50,840
personally and as a moderator.

386
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,480
So yeah it was reflected in my

387
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,200
my work and that's why I was
really happy

388
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,800
that at the end I could guide

389
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,960
this project as a project
management to do

390
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,000
the follow up tool in 2018

391
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,840
because at that time we could
as an organization

392
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,480
and me also my

393
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,320
personal expertise in
moderating this website, it

394
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,400
all could come together.

395
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,000
And at that time we also built
up an expertise

396
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,720
or voice as an organization
and

397
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,120
we're stronger than in 2012.

398
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,800
It was nice to work in

399
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,400
this way with the government
so that we could

400
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,000
develop a tool that everybody
was happy about.

401
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:36,200
Yes this is the way forward.

402
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,760
This is what we need to do to

403
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,000
turn this around.

404
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,240
So at the end we were more... I
was more..
.

405
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:46,160
Yeah I could say..

406
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,200
.

407
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,000
More colleagues also with the
government not in a way

408
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,920
like what my colleagues on the
Werkplaats,

409
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,520
but we could speak

410
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,200
more freely to each other and
everyone has

411
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,360
his position and his expertise
and is valued for that.

412
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,040
So that was another way of
working than 6, 7 years before
that.

413
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:11,240
How

414
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,120
do you negotiate the
differences between

415
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,120
the official
Flemish inventory and

416
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,800
the organization's inventory.

417
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:29,000
Yeah.

418
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,600
That's one of the changes that
was made in

419
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,920
developing the sector, because

420
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:39,480
like I said before in the
first tool the restrictions

421
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,120
were rather high.

422
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,320
So there had to be a
description.

423
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,280
Of the Intangible Cultural
Heritage and then it's

424
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,960
matched with a definition of
intangible cultural heritage.

425
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,320
The parameters that are that
you can find in the
definition.

426
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,000
One important one for example

427
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,120
is: is it still alive

428
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,000
and active? Are

429
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,840
people still doing it? Is

430
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,480
there a future for it? So
that's one aspect.

431
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,040
When people enter their
information that was one of
the things

432
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,880
that I would really look into

433
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,400
and ask extra questions
whether

434
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,560
or not it was for the
inventory or not that was

435
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,680
for example a very big issue.

436
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,680
But also as certainly on the
first

437
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,160
database people had to
describe their community.

438
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,280
And

439
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,880
the government was really
strict about it: from they
have to

440
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,440
describe their community
, otherwise they cannot be
visible in the front.

441
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,160
So they can be in the back-end,
they can work on their

442
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,000
content, but it can only be

443
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,680
made visible once all this
information is included.

444
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,640
One extra was that they had to
show

445
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,200
that they already had made
some

446
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,280
safeguarding measures.

447
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,560
So that was three very big
descriptions, we think.

448
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,120
Because what also comes up is
that you have

449
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,240
to have prior and informed
consent.

450
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,240
I don't know if you're familiar
with that.

451
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,960
That's something that is strict
in the convention.

452
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,480
You have to have prior and
informed consent to call

453
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,080
something intangible cultural
heritage.

454
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,680
So the government felt really
strongly

455
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,720
about and that was a really
strong restriction

456
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,200
for me to moderate
this content

457
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,240
and that would lead up to
asking extra

458
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,120
questions to the people.

459
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,720
So for 6, 7 years, me

460
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,520
as a moderator,

461
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,720
there was almost nothing that
I could moderate

462
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,240
and make visible in the front

463
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:46,560
other than the inventory

464
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,240
for cultural heritage because
the standards are so high.

465
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,320
So there was almost no
difference.

466
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,960
And that's something that we
made notable to

467
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,400
the government and now the
restrictions are much lesser.

468
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,160
So we pulled it apart.

469
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:05,880
So now people who want to make
their intangible

470
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,880
cultural heritage visible they
can.

471
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,480
They only have a form.

472
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,720
And five six questions that
they had to fill in.

473
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,360
And then they click a bottom
where they

474
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,000
say yes I have read the
definition

475
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,720
of intangible cultural
heritage and this is
intangible

476
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,000
cultural heritage to me.

477
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,160
And that's

478
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:29,120
also all that the convention
asks for.

479
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,640
But the government interpreted
the

480
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,160
convention at a very high
level.

481
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:37,600
Difficult level.

482
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,480
So we tried to narrow it down

483
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:46,680
and split it out.

484
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,520
The moderator now, he can just
look

485
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,120
into the texts that come up on

486
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,720
this little forum and

487
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,080
if people are interested in

488
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,720
applying for the inventory
they can

489
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,520
start to fill in another form
with

490
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,680
more questions but also easier
questions

491
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,240
than ever before to fill in a

492
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,840
form to apply for the
inventory and they

493
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,520
can also

494
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,480
get in contact with other
organizations if they wanted.

495
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,720
But also that is not necessary
anymore. And

496
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:20,600
previous times it was
necessary.

497
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,720
When

498
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,440
you made the transition from
the previous database to the
new

499
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:28,080
database,
what happened with these elements?

500
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,680
Very important in this

501
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,680
process was it was not only
a new database

502
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,440
, but it was also a new way of
reporting.

503
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,120
I don't know if you are
familiar with that concept
? That every

504
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,000
year elements who are on the
inventory

505
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,640
, they had to make a report on
how they

506
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,120
develop safeguarding measures
that year and how it has
evolved.

507
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,960
And also they were asked to

508
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,800
look into the description of
the heritage

509
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,680
and make changes if something

510
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,040
changed, or has come up, or
add something or.

511
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,000
But not many have done that
in the past years.

512
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,280
So we thought well there's a
new database now.

513
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:15,120
But it's also a different way
of working.

514
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,840
So we kept them informed.

515
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,880
We thought that was very
important.

516
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,560
On the new process, but also
what we

517
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,080
were aiming for with this new
website and

518
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,080
this new database and actually
it was the government

519
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:29,640
who led that process.

520
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,160
I made suggestions on how to do
that, but they were in

521
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:34,240
contact with the communities.

522
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,080
So we were restricted

523
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,520
the number of
characters that a text could
have

524
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,600
and a lot of texts were for
example I'm

525
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,480
giving you a very straight
clear example.

526
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,080
The texts were very long. So we
narrowed it down

527
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,920
and we did edit

528
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:57,360
the texts to make it more web
friendly

529
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,640
and then we gave it back to
the communities,

530
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,160
we informed that we were going
to do that and then we gave it
back to the

531
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:04,680
communities and we didn't

532
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,600
enter any new texts before we
got their consent.

533
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,360
Looking at the experts from
their new database

534
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,440
one column that stands out is
that of weight,

535
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,040
referring of course to the
order in which the elements
are

536
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:18,960
displayed on the website.

537
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,440
And most of the elements seem
to have a different weight
from another.

538
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,920
Could you mention how that
selection is made?

539
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,560
The grand idea about the new
website was all

540
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,640
diversity, diversity,
diversity. And we

541
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,120
wanted to have an impact on
the image of intangible
cultural

542
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,160
heritage and what it all can be
and is in Flanders

543
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:41,160
and not only just typical
Carnival

544
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,120
and Processions

545
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,520
but that is much more than
that.

546
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,680
So we wanted to have also

547
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,240
a sort of algorithm, because

548
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,840
there's only a few elements
that can be shown

549
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,720
on the front page and also

550
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,960
when you enter the part of the
elements.

551
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,920
Also there, there is every day

552
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,160
, every element has a different
place

553
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:08,440
in how it's presented.

554
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,160
It can be on the first page
it can be the second.

555
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:16,200
We wanted it also to change to
have algorithms in the
database.

556
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,800
And that's all because we
wanted to show

557
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,960
this diversity of elements,

558
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,720
but we would have done it in a
full

559
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,800
automatic way.

560
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,040
But the budget wasn't
sufficient enough.

561
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,560
So the developers came back to
us

562
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,080
and said "no we can't do it
that way but we have another
idea.

563
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:37,840
We switch it.

564
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,360
And with this bar you can give

565
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,160
it a percentage and then it
has a lower or higher

566
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:46,000
chance to come on the front
page

567
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,280
or to come on the first or the
second or the third".

568
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,760
And when we speak of diversity
it's on different

569
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,600
levels: it's the level of the
different domains

570
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,560
of cultural heritage.

571
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,400
It's whether it's heritage

572
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,800
that takes place in cities or

573
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,560
in the mainland or that's

574
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,720
mainly done by elders or by
youngsters.

575
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,240
So these differences, we

576
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,400
wanted to reflect it all.

577
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,960
And with that in our back of
our head we would manually

578
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,520
give it a different percentage
every month,

579
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,000
every week.