WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.360 For how long were you a moderator? 2 00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:09.280 I started moderating the database in 2012. 3 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:13.240 I think it was launched in September 2012, but we 4 00:00:13.440 --> 00:00:16.840 were involved in the project maybe March-April. 5 00:00:17.040 --> 00:00:23.040 So, at the end of the development, they contacted us. 6 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:27.320 'They' are the government - the Flemish government - who 7 00:00:27.520 --> 00:00:31.520 built this database and website. 8 00:00:31.720 --> 00:00:34.400 And they attracted us because we had knowledge 9 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.680 of working with participatory 10 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:41.640 ways and methodologies. 11 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:45.640 And I worked on it just until 12 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:47.640 April 2019. 13 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:49.640 When was the transition to the new database? 14 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:52.640 The transition happened in 2018 15 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:58.840 from the beginning of the year and it was launched in the beginning of December. 16 00:01:03.080 --> 00:01:04.560 What role did the Flemish government play in the development of the database? 17 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:04.240 The first and the second? Yes. 18 00:01:04.440 --> 00:01:05.920 Yeah. Well 19 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:09.200 they are the owners of the database 20 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:13.360 and you can say it's a reflection of their policy. 21 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:16.000 So, their policy on intangible cultural heritage 22 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:19.040 is totally incorporated in this tool. 23 00:01:19.240 --> 00:01:22.920 You can see it as a mirror of their policies. 24 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:25.560 There was a new policy since the end 25 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.080 of 2010, there was a new vision on how 26 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.400 to work with intangible cultural heritage in Flanders. And 27 00:01:31.600 --> 00:01:34.320 2012 was a year that they started really to 28 00:01:34.520 --> 00:01:38.160 develop the policy and put it into practice. 29 00:01:38.360 --> 00:01:41.280 And that professional organizations 30 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:44.840 in Flanders were 31 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:47.600 beginning to understand what intangible 32 00:01:47.800 --> 00:01:49.880 heritage is and what's it about. 33 00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:52.400 So the government developed a tool to 34 00:01:52.600 --> 00:01:55.040 sustain the work on intangible 35 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:56.040 cultural heritage. 36 00:01:56.240 --> 00:02:00.000 For the volunteers - the 37 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.760 tradition bearers, the ICH intangible cultural heritage bearers - , but 38 00:02:04.960 --> 00:02:06.760 also for the professionals. 39 00:02:06.960 --> 00:02:09.360 Were you also involved in the process of developing the 40 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:11.960 database? How did you collaborate on that? 41 00:02:12.160 --> 00:02:14.520 In the beginning it was mainly the government itself 42 00:02:14.720 --> 00:02:15.840 who developed it. 43 00:02:16.040 --> 00:02:17.240 With FARO. 44 00:02:17.440 --> 00:02:19.680 They were mainly involved. 45 00:02:19.880 --> 00:02:22.320 I think also PACKED was involved. 46 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.760 But PACKED was involved later on in the process, together 47 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:27.680 with us because of 48 00:02:27.880 --> 00:02:30.200 that's an organization who has expertise on 49 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:35.520 digital heritage and we had expertise on participative methods. 50 00:02:35.720 --> 00:02:38.280 So that's why they attracted us both, but 51 00:02:38.480 --> 00:02:40.000 much later in the process. 52 00:02:40.200 --> 00:02:43.120 So there was already a cooperation building the database. 53 00:02:43.320 --> 00:02:46.040 They already had decided what they wanted, who 54 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:47.600 was going to build it. 55 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.920 How did you find the first database? 56 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:55.000 How did I find it? Interesting... 57 00:02:55.200 --> 00:02:56.960 Challenging... 58 00:02:57.160 --> 00:02:59.200 I was the moderator of the platform. 59 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:01.760 Then you have already two terms and what I'm 60 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:04.920 saying now has a very broad meaning. 61 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:08.240 They said it was a platform on the digital cultural heritage, 62 00:03:08.440 --> 00:03:10.320 but with the word platform they meant it's 63 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:13.040 not only a digital tool, but 64 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.600 it's also a network of 65 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:18.240 professionals who are working on intangible 66 00:03:18.440 --> 00:03:20.920 cultural heritage and also the volunteers or the tradition bearers. 67 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.800 So 68 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:25.960 , following up on that. 69 00:03:26.160 --> 00:03:28.600 My role as a moderator was also 70 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.280 not only - let's say - the web master or 71 00:03:31.480 --> 00:03:32.880 the content manager. 72 00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:35.400 But I was also a central 73 00:03:35.600 --> 00:03:38.000 person to this network. 74 00:03:38.200 --> 00:03:40.760 And as an organization we tried to develop 75 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:43.920 this network the first years: 2012 , 2013, 2014. That was a big part of my job 76 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.120 . 77 00:03:47.320 --> 00:03:49.280 To get this network going. 78 00:03:49.480 --> 00:03:52.720 So I also played a role in that 79 00:03:52.920 --> 00:03:55.320 side and I was the center of 80 00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:57.840 this big network of professionals, 81 00:03:58.040 --> 00:04:00.400 tradition bearers, the government. 82 00:04:00.600 --> 00:04:03.400 And yeah, I was in charge of the 83 00:04:03.600 --> 00:04:06.720 flow of information and guidance 84 00:04:06.920 --> 00:04:09.400 on every aspect and 85 00:04:09.600 --> 00:04:10.920 in every way. 86 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:14.680 Next to content management and webmaster. 87 00:04:14.880 --> 00:04:17.920 The content was created by professionals, 88 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:20.920 by tradition bearers, but not by me. 89 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:23.480 I was only an extra gate 90 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:26.320 who guided them to ask them extra 91 00:04:26.520 --> 00:04:29.640 questions if some information was missing 92 00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:32.200 and we did minimal editing on 93 00:04:32.400 --> 00:04:36.320 the texts before it was put online. 94 00:04:36.520 --> 00:04:38.680 So my interactions were very minimal. 95 00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:41.200 And that's why the term moderator also came up because 96 00:04:41.400 --> 00:04:45.440 that was very clear from the start, that this was my role. 97 00:04:45.640 --> 00:04:48.000 That it was not to intervene too much in the 98 00:04:48.200 --> 00:04:53.080 content but just manage it and moderate it. 99 00:04:53.280 --> 00:04:55.800 Maybe you could describe how the process 100 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:58.520 of adding a new element to the 101 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.160 database goes? 102 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:05.160 There were different ways 103 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:07.200 to get in contact with people. 104 00:05:07.400 --> 00:05:09.760 So, it starts with people who 105 00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:12.520 wanted to add their - you say element 106 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.160 I say intangible cultural heritage - to the database. 107 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:19.600 Some people just heard about the database. 108 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:22.320 Some people just heard about 109 00:05:22.520 --> 00:05:26.120 the official inventory for intangible cultural heritage in Flanders. 110 00:05:26.320 --> 00:05:28.760 That was usually 111 00:05:28.960 --> 00:05:31.520 the most common that people heard about the inventory 112 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:34.960 and they eventually came up with the question: how can we 113 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:37.480 get our intangible cultural heritage on 114 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:41.200 this list, as they see it on the inventory. 115 00:05:41.400 --> 00:05:43.720 So that was usually the most common question and 116 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:46.360 how they reached us. 117 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:48.880 Sometimes it was just us 118 00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:53.000 or other professional organisations, 119 00:05:53.200 --> 00:05:56.000 who contacted people and on the other hand, we also organised some 120 00:05:56.200 --> 00:05:58.720 workshops and stuff like that ; promotional 121 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.200 actions to promote the site and the database. 122 00:06:02.400 --> 00:06:05.360 So that once people decide yes 123 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.000 we want to add our intangible 124 00:06:08.200 --> 00:06:10.280 cultural heritage, they could ask for that. 125 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:13.640 That was how the process was in 126 00:06:13.840 --> 00:06:16.000 the first database. 127 00:06:16.200 --> 00:06:19.480 There it was that they could ask for a login, a 128 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:21.920 personal one, I would provide it to them. 129 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:24.760 Then they get access to the actual database. 130 00:06:24.960 --> 00:06:27.080 They have a manual. 131 00:06:27.280 --> 00:06:29.800 On how to work with a database with 132 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.200 explanations at the different fields. 133 00:06:32.400 --> 00:06:34.960 What is what is really asked here 134 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:37.440 and then they could just go ahead. 135 00:06:37.640 --> 00:06:40.360 But what we also did and what we strongly advised 136 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.240 was to have a conversation with one of our colleague 137 00:06:43.440 --> 00:06:45.760 organizations that 138 00:06:45.960 --> 00:06:47.720 was linked to their intangible culture. 139 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:53.240 To make it more clear, let's say, someone 140 00:06:53.440 --> 00:06:55.840 who would want to add Carnival or something 141 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.440 like that, then we would guide them through an organization 142 00:06:59.640 --> 00:07:02.080 who worked on social traditions 143 00:07:02.280 --> 00:07:04.600 and that organization would have a conversation with 144 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.800 them on what is intangible heritage. 145 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:09.320 What is a policy on intangible heritage, so that they would 146 00:07:09.520 --> 00:07:11.920 fully grasp the idea of what intangible 147 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.680 heritage really is and what it meant 148 00:07:14.880 --> 00:07:19.080 and where the convention stands for where the policy stands for, 149 00:07:19.280 --> 00:07:21.760 what it meant for them in practice and that it's really all 150 00:07:21.960 --> 00:07:24.520 about working together and providing a future 151 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.560 for your intangible cultural heritage and keep it 152 00:07:27.760 --> 00:07:28.960 active and alive. 153 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:31.800 And it's not about the history 154 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:34.360 of heritage but it's more about the 155 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:36.880 future. And once they 156 00:07:37.080 --> 00:07:40.080 got that idea, then this organization 157 00:07:40.280 --> 00:07:42.960 also guided them not wrote 158 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:46.120 the text, but they guided them into the process of 159 00:07:46.320 --> 00:07:48.640 "Okay how are you now gonna describe it? How 160 00:07:48.840 --> 00:07:51.800 would other people describe it ? Who is involved 161 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:54.400 ? What actions do you take to create 162 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:57.720 a future for your intangible cultural heritage?". 163 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.040 Actually that was a large process most of the times. 164 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.760 Some people just described their heritage 165 00:08:03.960 --> 00:08:07.480 and described their community, 166 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:10.720 but it was also necessary 167 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:16.920 , otherwise you couldn't be visible 168 00:08:17.340 --> 00:08:18.640 in the front of the database, on the website. 169 00:08:18.840 --> 00:08:21.200 So most of the people really did this full process. 170 00:08:21.400 --> 00:08:24.400 Not everyone. In 171 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.920 the end it mostly led to 172 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.680 filing requests for also 173 00:08:31.880 --> 00:08:35.440 being mentioned on the inventory of intangible culture. 174 00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:38.520 Because of this whole process that they had to 175 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:41.040 undertake that 176 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.240 was usually the outcome. 177 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.040 So this was not my role. 178 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:48.720 My role was more like OK get 179 00:08:48.920 --> 00:08:51.400 people involved and explain 180 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:53.960 what the process is about and refer them to other 181 00:08:54.160 --> 00:08:56.840 organizations who then 182 00:08:57.040 --> 00:08:58.960 did this whole process with the people 183 00:08:59.160 --> 00:09:01.960 and then once they had written the texts and have 184 00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:04.480 come to a consensus about the texts that 185 00:09:04.680 --> 00:09:07.440 they wrote, then they got back to the 186 00:09:07.640 --> 00:09:11.960 database and started really filing in the content. 187 00:09:12.160 --> 00:09:15.240 And then I would just make some little 188 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.640 editing stuff or 189 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.200 say "Oh maybe it's better to use that picture", but 190 00:09:22.400 --> 00:09:26.560 my involvement was nothing more than that anymore at that time. 191 00:09:26.760 --> 00:09:29.280 I'm also wondering about the part where 192 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:33.280 the different parties that were involved had to reach a consensus. 193 00:09:33.280 --> 00:09:33.840 Yeah. 194 00:09:34.040 --> 00:09:36.560 Are there any traces 195 00:09:36.760 --> 00:09:40.040 in the inventory about the process - 196 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:42.200 of how they reached a consensus ? Mhm. Or 197 00:09:42.400 --> 00:09:44.560 of the moments where they didn't reach a consensus, for example. 198 00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:48.680 Not 199 00:09:48.880 --> 00:09:51.640 in the database itself, because it was 200 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:53.680 a process between people. 201 00:09:53.880 --> 00:09:56.960 It wasn't a digital process at that time. 202 00:09:57.160 --> 00:10:00.560 So, the texts that you see 203 00:10:00.760 --> 00:10:03.880 on the website that are texts that 204 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:06.520 they reached a consensus about, 205 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:09.160 that's the case certainly now at this 206 00:10:09.160 --> 00:10:10.320 point with a new database. 207 00:10:10.520 --> 00:10:13.080 If someone isn't in consensus with how 208 00:10:13.280 --> 00:10:15.720 it is mentioned, they are free and they can upload 209 00:10:15.920 --> 00:10:18.960 another version and it stands next to each other. 210 00:10:19.160 --> 00:10:20.720 That wasn't the case in the previous. 211 00:10:20.920 --> 00:10:23.880 But now the website is open to that. 212 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:27.040 Has anyone actually made use of this feature 213 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:29.160 , at least until April 2019? 214 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:30.680 Yes. 215 00:10:30.880 --> 00:10:35.000 So far I don't think so. 216 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:37.720 The professionals really played 217 00:10:37.920 --> 00:10:40.560 the role of mediator the 218 00:10:40.760 --> 00:10:42.840 past 6-7 years. 219 00:10:43.040 --> 00:10:45.640 That was the idea also 220 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:49.560 of the policy to bring people 221 00:10:49.760 --> 00:10:52.600 together on intangible cultural heritage 222 00:10:52.800 --> 00:10:54.960 and it all came back from the idea they can learn from each 223 00:10:55.160 --> 00:10:57.640 other and it strengthens the 224 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.440 intangible cultural heritage if people work together 225 00:11:00.640 --> 00:11:03.200 and if they share their experience and I think for a big part 226 00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:05.040 that's that's really true. 227 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.680 But you still have different voices 228 00:11:07.880 --> 00:11:10.240 and different meanings and when 0 I can 229 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:12.400 understand your question when it comes to texts. 230 00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:15.200 People can have another vision on 231 00:11:15.400 --> 00:11:18.680 how something is described or if 232 00:11:18.880 --> 00:11:21.480 they want to feel connected to it, but 233 00:11:21.680 --> 00:11:25.240 in the past they got to the point of a consensus. 234 00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:27.920 One of the examples that you 235 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:30.520 wrote in your email was about the Giants, 236 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.040 but that - actually I am actually not the 237 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:36.520 person who who can speak widely about it, 238 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.080 because it wasn't one of our projects - and the organization 239 00:11:39.280 --> 00:11:42.280 who has done that this was LECA, now they're part of Histories. 240 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.080 They were one of the first and actually they had a process 241 00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:47.840 for 7 or 8, 9 years because 242 00:11:48.040 --> 00:11:50.920 in France you have a lot of giants and 243 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:52.320 a lot of small communities 244 00:11:52.520 --> 00:11:55.800 but actually they're all part of a bigger community 245 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.440 of people who feel 246 00:11:58.640 --> 00:12:00.960 strongly about the Giants and keep them alive and 247 00:12:01.160 --> 00:12:04.760 then they said "well we have to get those people together". 248 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:07.360 And step by step, year by year, 249 00:12:07.560 --> 00:12:10.040 they started to work with these people and 250 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.040 attract more and more people. 251 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.640 And support them and actually in 252 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:17.440 the end they created a lot of cells 253 00:12:17.640 --> 00:12:21.520 in different regions with people 254 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:25.000 who were more or less involved. 255 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.560 They organized workshops in different regions and so 256 00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:30.480 a total movement actually arose 257 00:12:30.680 --> 00:12:33.000 and it came to an association for the 258 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:36.120 whole of Flanders on this Giant 259 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:37.440 culture actually. 260 00:12:37.640 --> 00:12:40.080 And then they applied for a place on 261 00:12:40.280 --> 00:12:42.800 the inventory as a whole, 262 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:45.480 but I have to say before 263 00:12:45.680 --> 00:12:48.840 that smaller communities already applied 264 00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:50.200 for an individual 265 00:12:50.400 --> 00:12:53.080 culture in the city, but 266 00:12:53.280 --> 00:12:56.040 it felt really strong that now they can speak of 267 00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:58.000 a Giant culture in Flanders. 268 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:02.160 Then they tried to 269 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.680 put the differences 270 00:13:04.880 --> 00:13:07.600 into the text on this culture but of course 271 00:13:07.800 --> 00:13:10.200 you have smaller aspects of 272 00:13:10.400 --> 00:13:12.720 culture in a smaller region that are different. 273 00:13:12.920 --> 00:13:16.440 But yes you can find some main 274 00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:20.320 lines and teams that 275 00:13:20.520 --> 00:13:21.720 apply to them all. 276 00:13:21.920 --> 00:13:24.320 They did a good job, but 277 00:13:24.520 --> 00:13:27.160 people are now certainly also 278 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:29.840 able to fill in the form 279 00:13:30.040 --> 00:13:31.720 just on their own culture. 280 00:13:31.920 --> 00:13:34.960 That's what I'm trying to say so we took 281 00:13:35.160 --> 00:13:37.480 that idea of "there has to be a consensus and 282 00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:40.320 everyone has to work together ", we 283 00:13:40.520 --> 00:13:43.920 took that down a notch in 284 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:46.840 the second database now. 285 00:13:47.040 --> 00:13:49.560 So now it's more everyone, even a small community 286 00:13:49.760 --> 00:13:52.120 , even a person can fill in a form 287 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:55.040 so that the giant of a small community 288 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:56.760 is also visible on the website. 289 00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:01.160 So the two ways 290 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.640 lie ahead now next to each other in the new database. Yeah. 291 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:08.480 How was this transition made ? Was the 292 00:14:08.680 --> 00:14:11.240 focus on a multiplicity 293 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.760 of views coming from 294 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:17.360 the organization Werk plaats Immaterieel Eerfgoed or 295 00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:19.160 was it coming from the Flemish government? 296 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.000 I think it was 297 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:23.680 from both ways. 298 00:14:23.880 --> 00:14:27.200 And there is also another organ 299 00:14:27.400 --> 00:14:29.920 in this whole process and that's a commission 300 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:32.640 of experts and 301 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:35.680 they advise the minister on 302 00:14:35.880 --> 00:14:38.320 which elements should be 303 00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:40.480 on the inventory. 304 00:14:40.680 --> 00:14:43.680 So they really went over all these appliances 305 00:14:43.880 --> 00:14:46.840 and they also had made some 306 00:14:47.040 --> 00:14:49.720 evaluations on the topic of the 307 00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:52.360 past years and made some suggestions. 308 00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:55.240 So when the years went by 309 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:58.440 faces headed into the same direction 310 00:14:58.640 --> 00:15:01.040 because we all noticed that "OK. 311 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:05.120 This way of working demands a lot of the people, ir demands a lot of the 312 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.360 professionals who are guiding them. 313 00:15:07.560 --> 00:15:10.960 Certainly 314 00:15:11.160 --> 00:15:13.400 it has has pros, many. 315 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.120 We have done terrific work on that, 316 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.840 but in terms of 317 00:15:19.040 --> 00:15:21.480 displaying on a website on 318 00:15:21.680 --> 00:15:24.400 inventorying ICH in Flanders and displaying 319 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.560 the diversity of ICH in Flanders... 320 00:15:28.760 --> 00:15:31.160 These two processes 321 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:34.720 can come together. They're just 322 00:15:34.920 --> 00:15:38.080 counterproductive actually, because it 323 00:15:38.280 --> 00:15:41.160 took such a long time to get to a text, 324 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:43.680 so they can display it and that's not the 325 00:15:43.880 --> 00:15:46.600 match we're trying to make 326 00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:49.280 an inventory of ICHin Flanders that's 327 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.400 really diverse also. 328 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.080 Was this one of the main reasons to move to a new database? 329 00:15:55.280 --> 00:15:57.160 Yes it was. Because 330 00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:59.680 the old database and the content that 331 00:15:59.880 --> 00:16:02.240 was in the database didn't show the 332 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.320 diversity of ICH in Flanders and had problems with that. 333 00:16:06.520 --> 00:16:08.840 So we made an analysis of what is going on 334 00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:11.920 here and there were a lot of technical issues, 335 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:14.800 barriers that slow down that process 336 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.320 next to the process on how we work with 337 00:16:17.520 --> 00:16:21.840 the tradition bearers and the policy and what they 338 00:16:22.040 --> 00:16:24.760 demanded of 339 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.400 work from these volunteers and that took a long 340 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.920 time for them to develop 341 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:36.120 and this is almost counterproductive to the inventorying ICH in Flanders. 342 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:39.400 And then you create an image of ICH in Flanders 343 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:44.000 only with the ICH 344 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:48.160 of people who already know the way to the professional organizations. 345 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.920 And then again when you look at look at it 346 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:53.800 from the perspective of the website only typical 347 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:55.360 ICH is presented there. 348 00:16:55.560 --> 00:16:57.960 So it's a conflict. A lot of steps 349 00:16:58.160 --> 00:17:00.880 had to be taken and you had a policy, 350 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:03.760 you had the process on how to 351 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.360 apply for the inventory, that are 352 00:17:06.560 --> 00:17:08.600 all barriers, 353 00:17:08.800 --> 00:17:11.880 but you also had the digital 354 00:17:12.080 --> 00:17:14.640 barriers that were definitely 355 00:17:14.840 --> 00:17:17.880 a big part of it because it was too difficult to work with. 356 00:17:18.080 --> 00:17:20.880 So 357 00:17:21.080 --> 00:17:23.120 in one year we worked on the three. 358 00:17:23.320 --> 00:17:25.720 Did you find that being a moderator 359 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.080 for the NGO the Werkplaats Immaterieel Erfgoed 360 00:17:29.280 --> 00:17:31.720 was different from being a moderator for elements 361 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:36.040 that went on the Flemish inventory? 362 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.920 It's true that my role was different than 363 00:17:39.120 --> 00:17:42.200 other colleagues of mine in the NGO. 364 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.120 And that sometimes it did 365 00:17:45.320 --> 00:17:48.480 in our day to day work it 366 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.480 did came up that I was more linked to the government. 367 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:53.920 Or that's how I felt it. 368 00:17:54.120 --> 00:17:56.640 Sometimes I have to say "but no Ellen, no, that's not true". 369 00:17:56.840 --> 00:17:59.160 But I had the feeling that I was moderating a 370 00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:01.800 tool of them and 371 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:06.120 that is something that I was always conscious about. 372 00:18:06.320 --> 00:18:08.360 It's a very direct line. 373 00:18:08.560 --> 00:18:11.840 In the work we have done as an organization 374 00:18:12.040 --> 00:18:15.480 , we could more develop our own 375 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:20.160 lines and vision on the website. We could. 376 00:18:20.360 --> 00:18:23.160 But it's more for working and 377 00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:25.960 finding and way in. Okay how far 378 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.360 can we go as an organization whose moderating this tool? 379 00:18:29.560 --> 00:18:32.200 And when do we have to 380 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:34.760 ask feedback or approval 381 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:39.080 from the government if we want to do it like this or like that. 382 00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:41.520 And then I was a person who was responsible for that. 383 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:44.600 So they felt freer in their work 384 00:18:44.800 --> 00:18:48.960 than I could ever be. Me 385 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:50.840 personally and as a moderator. 386 00:18:51.040 --> 00:18:53.480 So yeah it was reflected in my 387 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.200 my work and that's why I was really happy 388 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.800 that at the end I could guide 389 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.960 this project as a project management to do 390 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.000 the follow up tool in 2018 391 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:08.840 because at that time we could as an organization 392 00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:11.480 and me also my 393 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.320 personal expertise in moderating this website, it 394 00:19:14.520 --> 00:19:16.400 all could come together. 395 00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:20.000 And at that time we also built up an expertise 396 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:23.720 or voice as an organization and 397 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.120 we're stronger than in 2012. 398 00:19:26.320 --> 00:19:28.800 It was nice to work in 399 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:31.400 this way with the government so that we could 400 00:19:31.600 --> 00:19:35.000 develop a tool that everybody was happy about. 401 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:36.200 Yes this is the way forward. 402 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:38.760 This is what we need to do to 403 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.000 turn this around. 404 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:45.240 So at the end we were more... I was more.. . 405 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:46.160 Yeah I could say.. 406 00:19:46.360 --> 00:19:48.200 . 407 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.000 More colleagues also with the government not in a way 408 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.920 like what my colleagues on the Werkplaats, 409 00:19:54.120 --> 00:19:56.520 but we could speak 410 00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:59.200 more freely to each other and everyone has 411 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.360 his position and his expertise and is valued for that. 412 00:20:02.560 --> 00:20:06.040 So that was another way of working than 6, 7 years before that. 413 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:11.240 How 414 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.120 do you negotiate the differences between 415 00:20:15.320 --> 00:20:18.120 the official Flemish inventory and 416 00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:22.800 the organization's inventory. 417 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:29.000 Yeah. 418 00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:32.600 That's one of the changes that was made in 419 00:20:32.800 --> 00:20:36.920 developing the sector, because 420 00:20:37.120 --> 00:20:39.480 like I said before in the first tool the restrictions 421 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:41.120 were rather high. 422 00:20:41.320 --> 00:20:44.320 So there had to be a description. 423 00:20:44.520 --> 00:20:47.280 Of the Intangible Cultural Heritage and then it's 424 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:51.960 matched with a definition of intangible cultural heritage. 425 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.320 The parameters that are that you can find in the definition. 426 00:20:56.520 --> 00:20:59.000 One important one for example 427 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:03.120 is: is it still alive 428 00:21:03.320 --> 00:21:06.000 and active? Are 429 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.840 people still doing it? Is 430 00:21:09.040 --> 00:21:11.480 there a future for it? So that's one aspect. 431 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.040 When people enter their information that was one of the things 432 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:16.880 that I would really look into 433 00:21:17.080 --> 00:21:19.400 and ask extra questions whether 434 00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:22.560 or not it was for the inventory or not that was 435 00:21:22.760 --> 00:21:25.680 for example a very big issue. 436 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:28.680 But also as certainly on the first 437 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:32.160 database people had to describe their community. 438 00:21:32.360 --> 00:21:35.280 And 439 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:37.880 the government was really strict about it: from they have to 440 00:21:38.080 --> 00:21:41.440 describe their community , otherwise they cannot be visible in the front. 441 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:44.160 So they can be in the back-end, they can work on their 442 00:21:44.360 --> 00:21:47.000 content, but it can only be 443 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.680 made visible once all this information is included. 444 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.640 One extra was that they had to show 445 00:21:54.840 --> 00:21:57.200 that they already had made some 446 00:21:57.400 --> 00:21:59.280 safeguarding measures. 447 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.560 So that was three very big descriptions, we think. 448 00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:06.120 Because what also comes up is that you have 449 00:22:06.320 --> 00:22:08.240 to have prior and informed consent. 450 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:10.240 I don't know if you're familiar with that. 451 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:14.960 That's something that is strict in the convention. 452 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:17.480 You have to have prior and informed consent to call 453 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.080 something intangible cultural heritage. 454 00:22:20.280 --> 00:22:22.680 So the government felt really strongly 455 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:25.720 about and that was a really strong restriction 456 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.200 for me to moderate this content 457 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.240 and that would lead up to asking extra 458 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:34.120 questions to the people. 459 00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:36.720 So for 6, 7 years, me 460 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:39.520 as a moderator, 461 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.720 there was almost nothing that I could moderate 462 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:45.240 and make visible in the front 463 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:46.560 other than the inventory 464 00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:50.240 for cultural heritage because the standards are so high. 465 00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:52.320 So there was almost no difference. 466 00:22:52.520 --> 00:22:54.960 And that's something that we made notable to 467 00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:59.400 the government and now the restrictions are much lesser. 468 00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:03.160 So we pulled it apart. 469 00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:05.880 So now people who want to make their intangible 470 00:23:06.080 --> 00:23:07.880 cultural heritage visible they can. 471 00:23:08.080 --> 00:23:09.480 They only have a form. 472 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.720 And five six questions that they had to fill in. 473 00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:15.360 And then they click a bottom where they 474 00:23:15.560 --> 00:23:18.000 say yes I have read the definition 475 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:20.720 of intangible cultural heritage and this is intangible 476 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.000 cultural heritage to me. 477 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.160 And that's 478 00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:29.120 also all that the convention asks for. 479 00:23:29.320 --> 00:23:31.640 But the government interpreted the 480 00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:36.160 convention at a very high level. 481 00:23:36.360 --> 00:23:37.600 Difficult level. 482 00:23:37.800 --> 00:23:40.480 So we tried to narrow it down 483 00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:46.680 and split it out. 484 00:23:47.080 --> 00:23:49.520 The moderator now, he can just look 485 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:52.120 into the texts that come up on 486 00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:54.720 this little forum and 487 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.080 if people are interested in 488 00:23:58.280 --> 00:24:00.720 applying for the inventory they can 489 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:03.520 start to fill in another form with 490 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.680 more questions but also easier questions 491 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:09.240 than ever before to fill in a 492 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.840 form to apply for the inventory and they 493 00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:14.520 can also 494 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.480 get in contact with other organizations if they wanted. 495 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:20.720 But also that is not necessary anymore. And 496 00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:20.600 previous times it was necessary. 497 00:24:20.800 --> 00:24:24.720 When 498 00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:27.440 you made the transition from the previous database to the new 499 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:28.080 database, what happened with these elements? 500 00:24:28.280 --> 00:24:30.680 Very important in this 501 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.680 process was it was not only a new database 502 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.440 , but it was also a new way of reporting. 503 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:40.120 I don't know if you are familiar with that concept ? That every 504 00:24:40.320 --> 00:24:43.000 year elements who are on the inventory 505 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:46.640 , they had to make a report on how they 506 00:24:46.840 --> 00:24:50.120 develop safeguarding measures that year and how it has evolved. 507 00:24:50.320 --> 00:24:52.960 And also they were asked to 508 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.800 look into the description of the heritage 509 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.680 and make changes if something 510 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.040 changed, or has come up, or add something or. 511 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.000 But not many have done that in the past years. 512 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.280 So we thought well there's a new database now. 513 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:15.120 But it's also a different way of working. 514 00:25:15.320 --> 00:25:17.840 So we kept them informed. 515 00:25:18.040 --> 00:25:19.880 We thought that was very important. 516 00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:22.560 On the new process, but also what we 517 00:25:22.760 --> 00:25:25.080 were aiming for with this new website and 518 00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:28.080 this new database and actually it was the government 519 00:25:28.280 --> 00:25:29.640 who led that process. 520 00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:32.160 I made suggestions on how to do that, but they were in 521 00:25:32.360 --> 00:25:34.240 contact with the communities. 522 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.080 So we were restricted 523 00:25:37.280 --> 00:25:40.520 the number of characters that a text could have 524 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:43.600 and a lot of texts were for example I'm 525 00:25:43.800 --> 00:25:47.480 giving you a very straight clear example. 526 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:51.080 The texts were very long. So we narrowed it down 527 00:25:51.280 --> 00:25:53.920 and we did edit 528 00:25:54.120 --> 00:25:57.360 the texts to make it more web friendly 529 00:25:57.560 --> 00:25:59.640 and then we gave it back to the communities, 530 00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:02.160 we informed that we were going to do that and then we gave it back to the 531 00:26:02.360 --> 00:26:04.680 communities and we didn't 532 00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:08.600 enter any new texts before we got their consent. 533 00:26:08.800 --> 00:26:11.360 Looking at the experts from their new database 534 00:26:11.560 --> 00:26:14.440 one column that stands out is that of weight, 535 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.040 referring of course to the order in which the elements are 536 00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:18.960 displayed on the website. 537 00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.440 And most of the elements seem to have a different weight from another. 538 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.920 Could you mention how that selection is made? 539 00:26:26.120 --> 00:26:28.560 The grand idea about the new website was all 540 00:26:28.760 --> 00:26:31.640 diversity, diversity, diversity. And we 541 00:26:31.840 --> 00:26:35.120 wanted to have an impact on the image of intangible cultural 542 00:26:35.320 --> 00:26:38.160 heritage and what it all can be and is in Flanders 543 00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:41.160 and not only just typical Carnival 544 00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:44.120 and Processions 545 00:26:44.320 --> 00:26:46.520 but that is much more than that. 546 00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:49.680 So we wanted to have also 547 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:52.240 a sort of algorithm, because 548 00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:54.840 there's only a few elements that can be shown 549 00:26:55.040 --> 00:26:57.720 on the front page and also 550 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.960 when you enter the part of the elements. 551 00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:03.920 Also there, there is every day 552 00:27:04.120 --> 00:27:07.160 , every element has a different place 553 00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:08.440 in how it's presented. 554 00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:11.160 It can be on the first page it can be the second. 555 00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:16.200 We wanted it also to change to have algorithms in the database. 556 00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:18.800 And that's all because we wanted to show 557 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:21.960 this diversity of elements, 558 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:24.720 but we would have done it in a full 559 00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:26.800 automatic way. 560 00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:31.040 But the budget wasn't sufficient enough. 561 00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:33.560 So the developers came back to us 562 00:27:33.760 --> 00:27:37.080 and said "no we can't do it that way but we have another idea. 563 00:27:37.080 --> 00:27:37.840 We switch it. 564 00:27:38.040 --> 00:27:40.360 And with this bar you can give 565 00:27:40.560 --> 00:27:43.160 it a percentage and then it has a lower or higher 566 00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:46.000 chance to come on the front page 567 00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:48.280 or to come on the first or the second or the third". 568 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.760 And when we speak of diversity it's on different 569 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:54.600 levels: it's the level of the different domains 570 00:27:54.800 --> 00:27:56.560 of cultural heritage. 571 00:27:56.760 --> 00:27:59.400 It's whether it's heritage 572 00:27:59.600 --> 00:28:02.800 that takes place in cities or 573 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:06.560 in the mainland or that's 574 00:28:06.760 --> 00:28:09.720 mainly done by elders or by youngsters. 575 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:12.240 So these differences, we 576 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:14.400 wanted to reflect it all. 577 00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:17.960 And with that in our back of our head we would manually 578 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:20.520 give it a different percentage every month, 579 00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:22.000 every week.