diff --git a/.DS_Store b/.DS_Store
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+++ b/index.html
@@ -2,7 +2,7 @@
- Parade
+ The Weight of Things
-
+
@@ -112,7 +124,7 @@
-
+
@@ -150,7 +162,7 @@
-
Annotate to listen...
+ Keep the parade going...
diff --git a/interview/interview-with-ellen-NL.vtt b/interview/interview-with-ellen-NL.vtt
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@@ -0,0 +1,1891 @@
+WEBVTT
+
+00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.360
+Hoe lang was je een
+moderator?
+
+00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:09.280
+Ik ben begonnen als moderator van de database in 2012.
+
+00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:13.240
+Ik denk dat het werd gelanceerd in
+September 2012, maar wij
+
+00:00:13.440 --> 00:00:16.840
+werder betrokken bij het project
+rond maart-april.
+
+00:00:17.040 --> 00:00:23.040
+Dus, aan het einde van de
+ontwikkeling, namen ze contact met ons
+op.
+
+00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:27.320
+'Zij' zijn de
+overheid - de Vlaamse overheid - die
+
+00:00:27.520 --> 00:00:31.520
+deze database en website
+bouwde.
+
+00:00:31.720 --> 00:00:34.400
+En ze trokken ons aan omdat
+we kennis hadden
+
+00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.680
+van werk met participatieve
+10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,640
+methodologieën.
+
+00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:45.640
+En ik heb er aan gewerkt tot en met
+
+00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:47.640
+April 2019.
+
+00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:49.640
+Wanneer was de overgang naar de
+nieuwe database?
+
+00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:52.640
+De overgang vond plaats in 2018
+
+00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:58.840
+in het begin van het jaar
+en het werd gelanceerd
+begin december.
+
+00:01:03.080 --> 00:01:04.560
+Welke rol heeft de Vlaamse
+overheid gespeeld in de ontwikkeling van de
+database?
+17
+00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:04,240
+De eerste en de tweede?
+Ja.
+
+00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:09.200
+Zij zijn de eigenaars van de
+database
+
+00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:13.360
+en je zou kunnen zeggen dat het een
+weerspiegeling is van hun beleid.
+
+00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:16.000
+Dus, hun beleid op het gebied van
+immaterieel erfgoed
+
+00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:19.040
+is volledig opgenomen in
+dit instrument.
+
+00:01:19.240 --> 00:01:22.920
+Je kunt het zien als een spiegel van
+hun beleid.
+
+00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:25.560
+Er ontstond een nieuw beleid sinds
+eind
+
+00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.080
+2010, een nieuwe
+visie op de manier
+
+00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.400
+van werken met immaterieel
+cultureel erfgoed in
+Vlaanderen. En
+
+00:01:31.600 --> 00:01:34.320
+2012 was het jaar dat zij
+echt begonnen
+
+00:01:34.520 --> 00:01:38.160
+het beleid te formuleren en te ontwikkelen
+in de praktijk.
+
+00:01:38.360 --> 00:01:41.280
+En dat professionele
+organisaties
+
+00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:44.840
+in Vlaanderen
+
+00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:47.600
+begonnen te begrijpen wat
+immaterieel
+
+00:01:47.800 --> 00:01:49.880
+erfgoed is en waar het om
+gaat.
+
+00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:52.400
+Dus ontwikkelde de overheid een
+hulpmiddel om
+
+00:01:52.600 --> 00:01:55.040
+de inspanningen op het gebied van immaterieel
+
+00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:56.040
+cultureel erfgoed te ondersteunen.
+
+00:01:56.240 --> 00:02:00.000
+Voor de vrijwilligers - de
+
+00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.760
+traditie
+dragers, de ICH immaterieel cultureel erfgoed dragers - , maar...
+
+00:02:04.960 --> 00:02:06.760
+ook voor beroepsmensen.
+
+00:02:06.960 --> 00:02:09.360
+Was u ook betrokken bij
+de ontwikkeling van de
+
+00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:11.960
+database? Hoe heeft u
+daaraan meegewerkt?
+
+00:02:12.160 --> 00:02:14.520
+In het begin was het voornamelijk
+de overheid zelf
+
+00:02:14.720 --> 00:02:15.840
+die het ontwikkelde.
+
+00:02:16.040 --> 00:02:17.240
+Met FARO.
+
+00:02:17.440 --> 00:02:19.680
+Zij waren voornamelijk betrokken.
+
+00:02:19.880 --> 00:02:22.320
+Ik denk dat ook PACKED
+betrokken was.
+
+00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.760
+Maar PACKED was er later bij betrokken,
+samen met
+
+00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:27.680
+bij ons vanwege
+
+00:02:27.880 --> 00:02:30.200
+het feit dat het een organisatie is met
+expertise op het gebied van
+
+00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:35.520
+digitaal erfgoed en wij hadden
+expertise op het gebied van
+participatieve methodes.
+
+00:02:35.720 --> 00:02:38.280
+Daarom hebben ze contact met ons opgenomen, maar
+
+00:02:38.480 --> 00:02:40.000
+veel later in het proces.
+
+00:02:40.200 --> 00:02:43.120
+Dus er was al een
+een samenwerkingsproces rond de
+database.
+
+00:02:43.320 --> 00:02:46.040
+Ze hadden al besloten wat
+ze wilden, wie
+
+00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:47.600
+het zou gaan bouwen.
+
+00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.920
+Hoe vond je de eerste
+database?
+
+00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:55.000
+Hoe vond ik het?
+Interessant...
+
+00:02:55.200 --> 00:02:56.960
+Uitdagend....
+
+00:02:57.160 --> 00:02:59.200
+Ik was de moderator van de
+platform.
+
+00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:01.760
+Dan heb je al twee termen
+en wat ik nu
+
+00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:04.920
+zeg heeft een zeer brede
+betekenis.
+
+00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:08.240
+Voor hen is het een platform voor
+digitaal cultureel erfgoed,
+
+00:03:08.440 --> 00:03:10.320
+maar
+met het woord platform
+bedoelen ze dat het
+
+00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:13.040
+niet alleen een digitale tool is, maar ook een
+
+00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.600
+een netwerk van
+
+00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:18.240
+vakmensen die werken
+met immaterieel
+
+00:03:18.440 --> 00:03:20.920
+cultureel erfgoed en ook
+de vrijwilligers
+of de traditiedragers.
+
+00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.800
+Dus
+
+00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:25.960
+om dat op te volgen.
+
+00:03:26.160 --> 00:03:28.600
+Mijn rol als moderator was
+
+00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.280
+niet alleen - laten we zeggen -
+die van webmaster of
+
+00:03:31.480 --> 00:03:32.880
+content manager.
+
+00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:35.400
+Maar ik was ook een centrale
+
+00:03:35.600 --> 00:03:38.000
+persoon binnen dit netwerk.
+
+00:03:38.200 --> 00:03:40.760
+En als organisatie probeerden we dit netwerk
+te ontwikkelen
+
+00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:43.920
+de eerste
+jaren: 2012
+, 2013, 2014. Dat was een groot deel van mijn werk.
+
+00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.120
+.
+
+00:03:47.320 --> 00:03:49.280
+Om dit netwerk op gang te krijgen.
+
+00:03:49.480 --> 00:03:52.720
+Dus ik speelde ook een rol aan die
+
+00:03:52.920 --> 00:03:55.320
+kant, ik was het middelpunt in
+
+00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:57.840
+dit grote netwerk van
+vakmensen,
+
+00:03:58.040 --> 00:04:00.400
+traditiedragers, en de
+overheid.
+
+00:04:00.600 --> 00:04:03.400
+En ja, ik had de leiding over
+de
+
+00:04:03.600 --> 00:04:06.720
+stroom van informatie en
+adviseerde
+
+00:04:06.920 --> 00:04:09.400
+alle aspecten
+
+00:04:09.600 --> 00:04:10.920
+in alle opzichten.
+
+00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:14.680
+Naast content management
+en webmaster.
+
+00:04:14.880 --> 00:04:17.920
+De inhoud werd gemaakt door
+professionals,
+
+00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:20.920
+door traditiedragers, maar niet
+door mij.
+
+00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:23.480
+Ik was slechts een extra poort
+
+00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:26.320
+die hen begeleidde en extra
+
+00:04:26.520 --> 00:04:29.640
+vragen stelde als er informatie
+ontbrak.
+
+00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:32.200
+We deden zo min mogelijk aanpassingen
+
+00:04:32.400 --> 00:04:36.320
+aan de teksten voordat ze
+online werden gezet.
+
+00:04:36.520 --> 00:04:38.680
+Dus mijn interacties waren zeer
+minimaal.
+
+00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:41.200
+En dat is de reden waarom de term
+moderator naar voren kwam
+
+00:04:41.400 --> 00:04:45.440
+omdat het heel duidelijk was vanaf het
+begin dat dit mijn rol was.
+
+00:04:45.640 --> 00:04:48.000
+Dat het niet de bedoeling was om te veel
+in te grijpen qua
+
+00:04:48.200 --> 00:04:53.080
+inhoud, maar het gewoon te beheren en
+te modereren.
+
+00:04:53.280 --> 00:04:55.800
+Misschien kunt u de procedure beschrijven
+
+00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:58.520
+om een nieuw element toe te voegen aan de
+
+00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.160
+database?
+
+00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:05.160
+Er waren verschillende manieren
+
+00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:07.200
+om mensen te contacteren.
+
+00:05:07.400 --> 00:05:09.760
+Dus, het begint met mensen die hun
+
+00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:12.520
+- je zegt 'element', ik zeg
+immaterieel cultureel erfgoed -
+
+00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.160
+willen toevoegen
+aan de database.
+
+00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:19.600
+Sommige mensen hebben pas net
+over de database gehoord.
+
+00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:22.320
+Sommige mensen hebben net gehoord over
+
+00:05:22.520 --> 00:05:26.120
+de officiële inventaris voor
+immaterieel cultureel erfgoed
+in Vlaanderen.
+
+00:05:26.320 --> 00:05:28.760
+Dat was meestal
+
+00:05:28.960 --> 00:05:31.520
+de manier
+waarop ze over de inventaris hoorden
+
+00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:34.960
+en uiteindelijk komen ze
+met de vraag: hoe kunnen we
+
+00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:37.480
+ons immaterieel cultureel
+erfgoed op
+
+00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:41.200
+deze lijst krijgen, zoals ze die zien staan op
+de inventaris.
+
+00:05:41.400 --> 00:05:43.720
+Dus dat was de meest
+voorkomende vraag en
+
+00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:46.360
+meestal hoe ze ons bereikten.
+
+00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:48.880
+Soms waren wij het
+
+00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:53.000
+of samen met andere
+organisaties,
+
+00:05:53.200 --> 00:05:56.000
+die contact opnamen met mensen en
+anderzijds organiseerden we ook
+
+00:05:56.200 --> 00:05:58.720
+workshops enzovoort
+; promotionele
+
+00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.200
+acties om de site en de database
+te promoten.
+
+00:06:02.400 --> 00:06:05.360
+Zodat als de mensen eenmaal besluiten om te zeggen 'ja, wij
+
+00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.000
+willen ons immaterieel
+
+00:06:08.200 --> 00:06:10.280
+cultureel erfgoed toevoegen, ze dat
+kunnen vragen.
+
+00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:13.640
+Dat was het proces voor
+
+00:06:13.840 --> 00:06:16.000
+de eerste database.
+
+00:06:16.200 --> 00:06:19.480
+Daar konden ze
+vragen naar een persoonlijke login
+
+00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:21.920
+dat ik aan ze zou geven.
+
+00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:24.760
+Dan kregen ze toegang tot de
+huidige database.
+
+00:06:24.960 --> 00:06:27.080
+Ze ontvingen een handleiding.
+
+00:06:27.280 --> 00:06:29.800
+Met uitleg over de database
+
+00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.200
+en de verschillende
+vlakken.
+
+00:06:32.400 --> 00:06:34.960
+Wat er van ze wordt verwacht
+
+00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:37.440
+en hoe ze dat kunnen invullen.
+
+00:06:37.640 --> 00:06:40.360
+Maar wat we ook deden en wat we
+zeker aanraadden
+
+00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.240
+was om een gesprek aan te gaan
+met een van onze collega
+
+00:06:43.440 --> 00:06:45.760
+organisaties die
+
+00:06:45.960 --> 00:06:47.720
+gekoppeld was aan hun immateriële
+cultuur.
+
+00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:53.240
+Laten we voor meer duidelijkheid zeggen,
+iemand
+
+00:06:53.440 --> 00:06:55.840
+die Carnaval zou willen toevoegen....
+of zoiets
+
+00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.440
+die begeleidden we dan
+via een organisatie
+
+00:06:59.640 --> 00:07:02.080
+die rond sociale tradities werkte...
+
+00:07:02.280 --> 00:07:04.600
+en die organisatie zou
+in gesprek met ze gaan
+
+00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.800
+over de betekenis van immaterieel
+erfgoed.
+
+00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:09.320
+Wat is het beleid rond
+immaterieel erfgoed, zodat
+zij
+
+00:07:09.520 --> 00:07:11.920
+volledig kunnen begrijpen wat dat
+
+00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.680
+erfgoed echt is en wat het betekent
+
+00:07:14.880 --> 00:07:19.080
+en waar de conventie
+staat, waar het beleid staat,
+
+00:07:19.280 --> 00:07:21.760
+wat het in de praktijk betekent
+en dat het vooral gaat
+
+00:07:21.960 --> 00:07:24.520
+om samen te werken
+aan een toekomst
+
+00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.560
+voor hun erfgoed om het
+
+00:07:27.760 --> 00:07:28.960
+actief en in leven te houden.
+
+00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:31.800
+Het gaat niet zo zeer om de geschiedenis
+
+00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:34.360
+van het erfgoed, maar meer
+over
+
+00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:36.880
+de toekomst. En zodra ze
+
+00:07:37.080 --> 00:07:40.080
+dat snapten, begon de organisatie
+
+00:07:40.280 --> 00:07:42.960
+ze te begeleiden - niet door
+
+00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:46.120
+de tekst zelf te schrijven, maar ze te begeleiden
+in het proces van
+
+00:07:46.320 --> 00:07:48.640
+"OK, hoe ga je het nu
+beschrijven? Hoe
+
+00:07:48.840 --> 00:07:51.800
+zouden andere mensen het beschrijven? Wie is betrokken?
+
+00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:54.400
+Welke acties onderneemt u om
+
+00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:57.720
+een toekomst voor uw immaterieel erfgoed te creëren?".
+
+00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.040
+Eigenlijk was dat meestal een groot
+deel van het proces.
+
+00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.760
+Sommige mensen beschreven alleen
+hun erfgoed
+
+00:08:03.960 --> 00:08:07.480
+en hun gemeenschap,
+
+00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:10.720
+maar het was ook noodzakelijk om
+
+00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:16.920
+anders
+konden ze niet zichtbaar zijn
+
+00:08:17.340 --> 00:08:18.640
+voorin de database, op de website.
+
+00:08:18.840 --> 00:08:21.200
+Dus de meeste mensen deden dit hele proces.
+
+00:08:21.400 --> 00:08:24.400
+Niet iedereen. In
+
+00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.920
+het einde waar het meestal toe leidde
+
+00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.680
+was het indienen van een verzoek om ook
+
+00:08:31.880 --> 00:08:35.440
+te worden vermeld op de
+inventaris van immateriële
+cultuur.
+
+00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:38.520
+Vanwege dit hele proces
+
+00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.240
+was dat meestal de uitkomst.
+
+00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.040
+Dus dit was niet mijn rol.
+
+00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:48.720
+Mijn rol was meer OK, hoe kan ik
+
+00:08:48.920 --> 00:08:51.400
+mensen betrekken en uitleggen
+
+00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:53.960
+waar het proces over gaat, en
+doorverwijzen naar andere
+
+00:08:54.160 --> 00:08:56.840
+organisaties die dan
+
+00:08:57.040 --> 00:08:58.960
+dit hele proces aangingen
+
+00:08:59.160 --> 00:09:01.960
+en toen ze eenmaal de teksten
+hadden geschreven en
+
+00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:04.480
+tot een consensus waren gekomen
+
+00:09:04.680 --> 00:09:07.440
+dan kwamen ze terug naar de
+
+00:09:07.640 --> 00:09:11.960
+database om de vlakken in te vullen.
+
+00:09:12.160 --> 00:09:15.240
+En dan zou ik soms alleen wat
+
+00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.640
+bijwerken of
+
+00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.200
+zeggen "Oh misschien is deze foto beter" maar....
+
+00:09:22.400 --> 00:09:26.560
+mijn input was niet meer dan dat in die tijd.
+
+00:09:26.760 --> 00:09:29.280
+Ik ben ook benieuwd naar het
+deel waarin
+
+00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:33.280
+de verschillende partijen
+een consensus moesten bereiken.
+
+00:09:33.280 --> 00:09:33.840
+Ja.
+
+00:09:34.040 --> 00:09:36.560
+Zijn er sporen te vinden
+
+00:09:36.760 --> 00:09:40.040
+in de inventaris over het
+proces
+
+00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:42.200
+van hoe ze tot een consensus raakten?
+Of
+
+00:09:42.400 --> 00:09:44.560
+van de momenten waarop ze
+juist niet tot een
+consensus kwamen?
+
+00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:48.680
+Niet
+
+00:09:48.880 --> 00:09:51.640
+in de database zelf,
+omdat het om
+
+00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:53.680
+een proces tussen mensen gaat.
+
+00:09:53.880 --> 00:09:56.960
+Het was toen geen digitaal proces.
+
+00:09:57.160 --> 00:10:00.560
+Dus de teksten die je ziet
+
+00:10:00.760 --> 00:10:03.880
+op de website zijn teksten
+
+00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:06.520
+waar een consensus over is bereikt
+
+00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:09.160
+dat is nu zeker het geval
+
+00:10:09.160 --> 00:10:10.320
+met de nieuwe database.
+
+00:10:10.520 --> 00:10:13.080
+Als iemand het niet eens is
+met hoe
+
+00:10:13.280 --> 00:10:15.720
+het wordt vermeld, zijn ze vrij
+om een andere versie te uploaden
+
+00:10:15.920 --> 00:10:18.960
+die er naast komt te staan.
+
+00:10:19.160 --> 00:10:20.720
+Dat was niet het geval in de
+vorige database.
+
+00:10:20.920 --> 00:10:23.880
+Maar nu is de website daar open voor.
+
+00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:27.040
+Heeft iemand daadwerkelijk gebruik gemaakt van
+deze functie
+
+00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:29.160
+tenminste tot april 2019?
+
+00:10:30.880 --> 00:10:35.000
+Tot nu toe denk ik van niet.
+
+00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:37.720
+De professionals hebben echt
+
+00:10:37.920 --> 00:10:40.560
+als bemiddelaars gespeeld in
+
+00:10:40.760 --> 00:10:42.840
+de afgelopen 6-7 jaar.
+
+00:10:43.040 --> 00:10:45.640
+Dat was ook het idee...
+
+00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:49.560
+van het beleid om mensen samen te brengen
+
+00:10:49.760 --> 00:10:52.600
+rond immaterieel
+cultureel erfgoed
+
+00:10:52.800 --> 00:10:54.960
+om van elkaar te leren
+
+00:10:55.160 --> 00:10:57.640
+en dat het erfgoed sterker wordt
+
+00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.440
+als mensen samenwerken
+
+00:11:00.640 --> 00:11:03.200
+en hun ervaringen kunnen delen
+
+00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:05.040
+en ik denk dat dat voor een groot deel waar is.
+
+00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.680
+Maar je hebt nog steeds andere
+stemmen
+
+00:11:07.880 --> 00:11:10.240
+en verschillende betekenissen en ik begrijp
+
+00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:12.400
+zeker je vraag als het om teksten gaat.
+
+00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:15.200
+Mensen kunnen een andere visie hebben
+over
+
+00:11:15.400 --> 00:11:18.680
+hoe iets wordt beschreven of
+of
+
+00:11:18.880 --> 00:11:21.480
+ze willen zich ertoe verbonden voelen, maar
+
+00:11:21.680 --> 00:11:25.240
+in het verleden kwamen ze tot een consensus.
+
+00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:27.920
+Een van de voorbeelden die je gaf
+
+00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:30.520
+in je e-mail ging over
+de Reuzen,
+
+00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.040
+maar ook al ben ik niet de
+
+00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:36.520
+persoon die er het meest over kan spreken
+
+00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.080
+want het was niet een van onze
+projecten - en de
+instelling
+
+00:11:39.280 --> 00:11:42.280
+die dat heeft gedaan
+was LECA, nu maken ze deel uit van
+de Histories.
+
+00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.080
+Zij waren een van de eerste en
+eigenlijk ging het om een proces
+
+00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:47.840
+van 7 of 8, 9 jaar omdat
+
+00:11:48.040 --> 00:11:50.920
+je in Frankrijk een heleboel
+reuzen hebt met
+
+00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:52.320
+verschillende kleine gemeenschappen...
+
+00:11:52.520 --> 00:11:55.800
+maar eigenlijk maken ze allemaal deel uit van
+een grotere gemeenschap
+
+00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.440
+van mensen die
+
+00:11:58.640 --> 00:12:00.960
+de Reuzen belangrijk vinden en
+ze in leven houden en
+
+00:12:01.160 --> 00:12:04.760
+zij besloten: "Wij zorgen ervoor
+om die mensen bij elkaar te krijgen".
+
+00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:07.360
+En stap voor stap, jaar in jaar uit...
+
+00:12:07.560 --> 00:12:10.040
+begonnen ze met deze mensen te werken
+
+00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.040
+en er steeds meer aan te trekken.
+
+00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.640
+En hen te ondersteunen en uiteindelijk
+
+00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:17.440
+ontwikkelden ze een grot aantal eenheden
+
+00:12:17.640 --> 00:12:21.520
+in verschillende regio's
+met mensen
+
+00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:25.000
+die min of meer
+betrokken waren.
+
+00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.560
+Zij organiseerden workshops in
+verschillende regio's waardoor
+
+00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:30.480
+een totale beweging is ontstaan
+
+00:12:30.680 --> 00:12:33.000
+die leidde tot een vereniging
+voor de
+
+00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:36.120
+Reuzencultuur
+
+00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:37.440
+in heel Vlaanderen.
+
+00:12:37.640 --> 00:12:40.080
+En toen hebben ze een aanvraag ingediend voor een
+plek op
+
+00:12:40.280 --> 00:12:42.800
+de inventaris als een geheel,
+
+00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:45.480
+maar ik moet zeggen
+
+00:12:45.680 --> 00:12:48.840
+dat kleinere gemeenschappen
+reeds verzoeken hebben ingediend
+
+00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:50.200
+voor een individuele
+
+00:12:50.400 --> 00:12:53.080
+cultuur in de stad, maar
+
+00:12:53.280 --> 00:12:56.040
+nu voelt het echt alsof ze samen kunnen spreken over
+
+00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:58.000
+een Reuzencultuur in Vlaanderen.
+
+00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:02.160
+Toen probeerden ze om
+
+00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.680
+verschillen te benadrukken
+
+00:13:04.880 --> 00:13:07.600
+in de teksten over deze cultuur...
+want natuurlijk
+
+00:13:07.800 --> 00:13:10.200
+heb je kleinere aspecten van
+
+00:13:10.400 --> 00:13:12.720
+dezelfde cultuur in verschillende regio's
+die anders zijn.
+
+00:13:12.920 --> 00:13:16.440
+Maar je kunt zeker
+
+00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:20.320
+richtlijnen en teams vinden die
+
+00:13:20.520 --> 00:13:21.720
+voor hen allemaal gelden.
+
+00:13:21.920 --> 00:13:24.320
+Ze hebben het goed gedaan, maar
+
+00:13:24.520 --> 00:13:27.160
+mensen zijn nu zeker ook zelf
+
+00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:29.840
+in staat om het formulier in te vullen
+
+00:13:30.040 --> 00:13:31.720
+over hun eigen cultuur.
+
+00:13:31.920 --> 00:13:34.960
+Dat is wat ik probeer te zeggen...
+
+00:13:35.160 --> 00:13:37.480
+het idee van "er moet
+een consensus worden gevonden en
+
+00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:40.320
+iedereen moet samenwerken"
+
+00:13:40.520 --> 00:13:43.920
+dat hebben we een beetje minder in de verf gezet
+
+00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:46.840
+in de tweede database.
+
+00:13:47.040 --> 00:13:49.560
+Dus nu is het meer zo dat iedereen, zelfs
+een kleine gemeenschap,
+
+00:13:49.760 --> 00:13:52.120
+zelfs een individuele persoon het formulier kan invullen
+
+00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:55.040
+zodat de reus van een kleine
+gemeenschap
+
+00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:56.760
+ook zichtbaar op de
+website staat.
+
+00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:01.160
+Dus de twee methodes
+
+00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.640
+bestaan nu naast elkaar in
+de nieuwe database.
+
+00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:08.480
+Hoe is deze overgang tot stand gekomen
+? Was de
+
+00:14:08.680 --> 00:14:11.240
+focus op een meervoudigheid
+
+00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.760
+van standpunten afkomstig van
+
+00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:17.360
+de organisatie Werkplaats Immaterieel Eerfgoed of
+
+00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:19.160
+was het afkomstig van de
+Vlaamse overheid?
+
+00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.000
+Ik denk dat het
+
+00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:23.680
+van beide kanten kwam.
+
+00:14:23.880 --> 00:14:27.200
+En er is ook nog een andere instelling
+
+00:14:27.400 --> 00:14:29.920
+in dit hele proces en
+dat is een commissie...
+
+00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:32.640
+van experts en
+
+00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:35.680
+zij adviseren de minister over
+
+00:14:35.880 --> 00:14:38.320
+de elementen die op de inventaris
+
+00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:40.480
+horen te staan.
+
+00:14:40.680 --> 00:14:43.680
+Dus zij hebben echt allen aanvragen doorgekamt
+
+00:14:43.880 --> 00:14:46.840
+en evaluaties en suggesties over
+
+00:14:47.040 --> 00:14:49.720
+de thema's van de
+
+00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:52.360
+de afgelopen jaren gemaakt.
+
+00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:55.240
+Dus toen de jaren voorbij gingen
+
+00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:58.440
+keek iedereen dezelfde kant op
+
+00:14:58.640 --> 00:15:01.040
+omdat we allemaal hebben gemerkt dat...
+"OK.
+
+00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:05.120
+Deze manier van werken eist veel van de
+
+00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.360
+professionals die de weg moeten wijzen."
+
+00:15:07.560 --> 00:15:10.960
+Zeker
+
+00:15:11.160 --> 00:15:13.400
+heeft het ook veel voordelen.
+
+00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.120
+We hebben geweldig werk verricht op dat gebied
+
+00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.840
+maar als her gaat om
+
+00:15:19.040 --> 00:15:21.480
+het weergeven op een website,
+
+00:15:21.680 --> 00:15:24.400
+het inventariseren en het tonen van
+
+00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.560
+de diversiteit van ICH in
+Vlaanderen....
+
+00:15:28.760 --> 00:15:31.160
+Deze twee processen
+
+00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:34.720
+kunnen samenkomen. Ze waren
+inderdaad
+
+00:15:34.920 --> 00:15:38.080
+contraproductief,
+omdat het
+
+00:15:38.280 --> 00:15:41.160
+zo lang duurde om tot een tekst te komen
+
+00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:43.680
+die toonbaar was.
+
+00:15:43.880 --> 00:15:46.600
+Het gaat er toch eerder om,
+
+00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:49.280
+een inventaris van ICH in Vlaanderen
+
+00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.400
+te maken die ook echt divers is.
+
+00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.080
+Was dit een van de belangrijkste
+redenen om een nieuwe
+database te beginnen?
+
+00:15:55.280 --> 00:15:57.160
+Ja, dat was het wel. Omdat
+
+00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:59.680
+de oude database en de
+content die daar
+
+00:15:59.880 --> 00:16:02.240
+stond, niet de diversiteit van ICH
+
+00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.320
+in Vlaanderen toonde, wat problematisch was.
+
+00:16:06.520 --> 00:16:08.840
+Dus hebben we een analyse gemaakt
+
+00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:11.920
+waaruit een hoop
+technische kwesties naar boven kwamen,
+
+00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:14.800
+barrières die het proces vertraagden
+
+00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.320
+naast het proces over hoe wij
+werken met
+
+00:16:17.520 --> 00:16:21.840
+de traditiedragers en
+het beleid en wat dat
+
+00:16:22.040 --> 00:16:24.760
+vereist qua
+
+00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.400
+werk van onze vrijwilligers...
+
+00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.920
+Dit tijdverlies
+
+00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:36.120
+bleek
+contraproductief voor de
+inventarisatie van ICH in Vlaanderen.
+
+00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:39.400
+En dan creëer je een beeld van
+ICH in Vlaanderen
+
+00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:44.000
+alleen met de ICH
+
+00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:48.160
+van mensen die de weg naar
+professionele organisaties al kennen.
+
+00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.920
+En nogmaals als je het bekijkt
+
+00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:53.800
+vanuit het perspectief van de
+website merk je dat alleen typisch
+
+00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:55.360
+ICH daar wordt gepresenteerd.
+
+00:16:55.560 --> 00:16:57.960
+Dus het is een conflict. Veel
+stappen
+
+00:16:58.160 --> 00:17:00.880
+moesten worden genomen want er bestond
+een beleid en
+
+00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:03.760
+een proces voor aanvraag
+
+00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.360
+die barrières voormden
+
+00:17:08.800 --> 00:17:11.880
+maar ook digitale barrières
+
+00:17:12.080 --> 00:17:14.640
+die meespeelden
+
+00:17:14.840 --> 00:17:17.880
+omdat ze niet toengankelijk waren.
+
+00:17:18.080 --> 00:17:20.880
+Dus in een jaar tijd
+
+00:17:21.080 --> 00:17:23.120
+hebben we aan al die drie aspecten gewerkt.
+
+00:17:23.320 --> 00:17:25.720
+Vond u het anders te werken als moderator
+
+00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.080
+voor
+Werkplaats Immaterieel Erfgoed
+
+00:17:29.280 --> 00:17:31.720
+dan voor de Vlaamse inventaris?
+
+00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.920
+Het is waar dat mijn rol anders was
+
+00:17:39.120 --> 00:17:42.200
+dan die van collega's op de organisatie.
+
+00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.120
+Dat had een invloed
+
+00:17:45.320 --> 00:17:48.480
+op onze dagelijkse werkzaamheden...
+
+00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.480
+waaruit bleek dat ik meer met de overheid verbonden was.
+
+00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:53.920
+Of zo voelde het tenminste.
+
+00:17:54.120 --> 00:17:56.640
+Soms moet ik zeggen "maar nee"....
+Ellen, nee, dat is niet waar".
+
+00:17:56.840 --> 00:17:59.160
+Maar toch had ik her gevoel dat ik een
+
+00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:01.800
+instrument van de regering bemiddelde.
+
+00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:06.120
+Daar was ik altijd van bewust.
+
+00:18:06.320 --> 00:18:08.360
+Het is een zeer directe lijn.
+
+00:18:08.560 --> 00:18:11.840
+In ons werk als organisatie
+
+00:18:12.040 --> 00:18:15.480
+kunnen we meer onze eigen
+
+00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:20.160
+richtlijnen en visie ontwikkelen op de website.
+
+00:18:20.360 --> 00:18:23.160
+Maar het gaat vooral om een weg naar binnen te vinden.
+
+00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:25.960
+Hoe ver kunnen we
+
+00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.360
+gaan als modererende organisatie?
+
+00:18:29.560 --> 00:18:32.200
+En wanneer moeten we
+
+00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:34.760
+feedback of goedkeuring aan de overheid vragen
+
+00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:39.080
+als we het op de één of andere manier willen doen?
+
+00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:41.520
+Ik was daar verantoordelijk voor.
+
+00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:44.600
+Dus ze voelden zich vrijer in hun werk
+
+00:18:44.800 --> 00:18:48.960
+dan ik ooit had kunnen zijn.
+
+00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:50.840
+Ik persoonlijk en als moderator.
+
+00:18:51.040 --> 00:18:53.480
+Dus ja, het werd weerspiegeld in mijn
+
+00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.200
+werk en daarom was ik erg blij
+
+00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.800
+dat ik dit project kon begeleiden
+
+00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.960
+als project manager
+
+00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.000
+voor de follow-up in 2018.
+
+00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:08.840
+Op dat moment kon ons werk als organisatie
+
+00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:11.480
+zowel als mijn
+
+00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.320
+persoonlijke expertise als moderator
+
+00:19:14.520 --> 00:19:16.400
+samen komen.
+
+00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:20.000
+Zo bouwden we ook een expertise
+
+00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:23.720
+of een stem als organisatie
+
+00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.120
+waardoor we sterker zijn dan in 2012.
+
+00:19:26.320 --> 00:19:28.800
+Het was fijn om op deze manier
+
+00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:31.400
+samen met de overheid te werken
+
+00:19:31.600 --> 00:19:35.000
+om een instrument te ontwikkelen waar iedereen
+blij mee kon zijn.
+
+00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:36.200
+Ja, dit is de weg vooruit.
+
+00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:38.760
+Dit is wat we moeten doen.
+
+00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:45.240
+Dus op het einde waren we meer...
+
+00:19:54.120 --> 00:19:56.520
+We konden vrijer met elkaar
+
+00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:59.200
+spreken, iedereen heeft
+
+00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.360
+zijn positie en zijn deskundigheid
+en wordt daarvoor gewaardeerd.
+
+00:20:02.560 --> 00:20:06.040
+Dus dat was een andere manier van
+werken dan 6, 7 jaar geleden.
+
+00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.120
+Hoe onderhandelt u de
+verschillen tussen
+
+00:20:15.320 --> 00:20:18.120
+de officiele
+Vlaamse inventaris en
+
+00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:22.800
+de inventaris van de organisatie?
+
+00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:32.600
+Dat is een van de veranderingen die plaatsvond
+
+00:20:32.800 --> 00:20:36.920
+in de ontwikkeling van de sector, omdat
+
+00:20:37.120 --> 00:20:39.480
+zoals ik al zei de beperkingen nogal hoor waren
+
+00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:41.120
+in eerste instantie.
+
+00:20:41.320 --> 00:20:44.320
+Dus er moest een
+beschrijving komen.
+
+00:20:44.520 --> 00:20:47.280
+Van Immaterieel Cultureel
+Erfgoed
+
+00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:51.960
+gekoppeld aan een definitie van
+immaterieel cultureel erfgoed.
+
+00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.320
+De parameters kun je terugvinden in de
+definitie.
+
+00:20:56.520 --> 00:20:59.000
+Een belangrijk voorbeeld
+
+00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:03.120
+is: leeft het nog steeds?
+
+00:21:03.320 --> 00:21:06.000
+Is het nog actief?
+
+00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.840
+Doen mensen het nog?
+
+00:21:09.040 --> 00:21:11.480
+Is er een toekomst voor? Dus
+dat is één aspect.
+
+00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.040
+Dat was een van de dingen
+
+00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:16.880
+waar ik echt naar zou kijken
+
+00:21:17.080 --> 00:21:19.400
+en extra vragen zou stellen
+
+00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:22.560
+ook al was het niet voor de inventaris.
+
+00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:32.160
+Zoals met de eerste database
+moet de gemeenschap worden beschreven.
+
+00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:37.880
+De regering was daar echt
+streng over: ze moeten die beschrijven
+
+00:21:38.080 --> 00:21:41.440
+anders kunnen ze niet op de front-end van de website staan.
+
+00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:44.160
+Ze kunnen aan de back-end zijn,
+ze kunnen aan hun inhoud werken
+
+00:21:44.360 --> 00:21:47.000
+maar het kan alleen
+
+00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.680
+zichtbaar worden gemaakt wanneer al deze
+informatie wordt bijgesloten.
+
+00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.640
+Ook moesten ze laten zien
+
+00:21:54.840 --> 00:21:57.200
+dat ze
+
+00:21:57.400 --> 00:21:59.280
+beschermingsmaatregelen hadden genomen.
+
+00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.560
+Dus drie zeer lange beschrijvingen.
+
+00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:06.120
+Want je moet ook vooraf
+
+00:22:06.320 --> 00:22:08.240
+geïnformeerde toestemming krijgen.
+
+00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:10.240
+Ik weet niet of je daarmee bekent bent.
+
+00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:14.960
+Dat is zeer strikt
+in de conventie.
+
+00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:17.480
+Je moet beschikken over een voorafgaande en
+geïnformeerde toestemming om
+
+00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.080
+iets immaterieel cultureel
+erfgoed te noemen.
+
+00:22:20.280 --> 00:22:22.680
+Dat was zeer belangrijk voor de regering
+
+00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:25.720
+en een sterke beperking
+
+00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.200
+voor mij als moderator
+
+00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.240
+om extra vragen te stellen.
+
+00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:36.720
+Dus voor 6, 7 jaar
+
+00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:39.520
+als moderator,
+
+00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.720
+was er bijna niets dat ik
+
+00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:45.240
+zichtbaar kon maken aan de voorzijde
+
+00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:46.560
+behalve de inventaris
+
+00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:50.240
+voor cultureel erfgoed omdat
+de eisen zo hoog waren.
+
+00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:52.320
+Dus er was bijna geen
+verschil.
+
+00:22:52.520 --> 00:22:54.960
+En dat is iets dat we duidelijk hebben gemaakt
+
+00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:59.400
+aan de regering en nu zijn de
+beperkingen veel lichter.
+
+00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:03.160
+Dus we hebben het uit elkaar gehaald.
+
+00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:05.880
+Dus als mensen hun erfgoed willen tonen
+
+00:23:06.080 --> 00:23:07.880
+kan dat nu.
+
+00:23:08.080 --> 00:23:09.480
+Ze hebben alleen een formulier nodig
+
+00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.720
+En zes vragen die
+ze moeten invullen.
+
+00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:15.360
+En dan klikken ze op een knopje
+
+00:23:15.560 --> 00:23:18.000
+om te zeggen dat ze de definitie
+
+00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:20.720
+van immaterieel cultureel
+erfgoed hebben gelezen en
+
+00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.000
+dat die bij hun gevoel past.
+
+00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.160
+En dat is ook het enige
+
+00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:29.120
+waar de conventie om vraagt.
+
+00:23:29.320 --> 00:23:31.640
+Maar de regering interpreteerde
+
+00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:36.160
+de conventie op een zeer hoog niveau.
+
+00:23:36.360 --> 00:23:37.600
+Een te moeilijk niveau.
+
+00:23:37.800 --> 00:23:40.480
+Dus we probeerden het te beperken....
+
+00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:46.680
+en het op te splitsen.
+
+00:23:47.080 --> 00:23:49.520
+De moderator kan nu gewoon naar
+
+00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:52.120
+de teksten kijken
+
+00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:54.720
+op dit kleine forum.
+
+00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.080
+Als mensen geïnteresseerd zijn
+
+00:23:58.280 --> 00:24:00.720
+om een aanvraag te doen kunnen ze
+
+00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:03.520
+beginnen met het invullen van een ander formulier
+met
+
+00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.680
+meer vragen die ook makkelijker zijn
+
+00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:09.240
+dan ooit tevoren.
+
+00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:14.520
+Ook kunnen ze
+
+00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.480
+in contact komen met andere
+organisaties als ze dat willen.
+
+00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:20.720
+Maar dat is eigenlijk niet meer nodig.
+496
+00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:20,600
+
+00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:27.440
+Wat gebeurde er met deze elementen tijdens de
+
+00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:28.080
+overgang naar de nieuwe database?
+
+00:24:28.280 --> 00:24:30.680
+Zeer belangrijk hierbij is
+
+00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.680
+dat het niet alleen een nieuwe database is
+
+00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.440
+maar ook een nieuwe manier van rapporteren.
+
+00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:40.120
+Ik weet niet of je
+vertrouwd bent met dat concept?
+
+00:24:40.320 --> 00:24:43.000
+Dat elk jaar de elementen die op de
+inventaris staan
+
+00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:46.640
+een rapport moeten schrijven over de verschillende
+
+00:24:46.840 --> 00:24:50.120
+beschermingsmaatregelen en hoe die zijn ontwikkeld.
+
+00:24:50.320 --> 00:24:52.960
+En ze werden ook gevraagd om
+
+00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.800
+te kijken naar de beschrijving van
+het erfgoed
+
+00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.680
+en veranderingen aan te brengen als er iets
+
+00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.040
+naar boven is gekomen, of iets moest worden toegevoegd.
+
+00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.000
+Maar niet veel hebben dat gedaan
+in de afgelopen jaren.
+
+00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.280
+Dus is het niet alleen een nieuwe database
+
+00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:15.120
+maar ook een andere manier van werken.
+
+00:25:15.320 --> 00:25:17.840
+Dus we hebben ze op de hoogte gebracht.
+
+00:25:18.040 --> 00:25:19.880
+Dat bleek ons erg belangrijk.
+
+00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:22.560
+Over het nieuwe proces, maar ook
+
+00:25:22.760 --> 00:25:25.080
+wat we wilden bereiken met de nieuwe website
+
+00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:28.080
+en onze nieuwe database.
+
+00:25:28.280 --> 00:25:29.640
+De overheid heeft dat proces voornamelijk aangestuurd.
+
+00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:32.160
+Ik heb daar suggesties over gemaakt, maar zij waren in
+
+00:25:32.360 --> 00:25:34.240
+contact met de gemeenschappen.
+
+00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.080
+Dus we werden beperkt
+
+00:25:37.280 --> 00:25:40.520
+in het aantal
+tekens die een tekst kon bevatten
+
+00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:43.600
+want veel teksten vroegen naar
+
+00:25:43.800 --> 00:25:47.480
+een duidelijk voorbeeld.
+
+00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:51.080
+De teksten waren erg lang. Dus we hebben ze ingekort
+
+00:25:51.280 --> 00:25:53.920
+om ze meer webvriendelijk te maken
+
+00:25:54.120 --> 00:25:57.360
+en toen terug naar de gemeenschappen gestuurd
+
+00:25:57.560 --> 00:25:59.640
+met uitleg over de redenen daarvoor.
+
+00:26:02.360 --> 00:26:04.680
+Die nieuwe teksten hebben we niet ingevoerd
+
+00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:08.600
+zoland we daar geen toestemming over kregen van de gemeenschappen zelf.
+
+00:26:08.800 --> 00:26:11.360
+Als men kijkt naar de nieuwe website...
+
+00:26:11.560 --> 00:26:14.440
+Een rubriek die opvalt is
+dat van het gewicht,
+
+00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.040
+verwijzend naar de
+volgorde waarin de elementen
+worden
+
+00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:18.960
+weergeven op de website.
+
+00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.440
+En de meeste elementen lijken verschillende gewichten van elkaar te hebben.
+
+00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.920
+Kunt u aangeven hoe deze
+selectie werkt?
+
+00:26:26.120 --> 00:26:28.560
+De nieuwe website ging voornamelijk over
+
+00:26:28.760 --> 00:26:31.640
+diversiteit, diversiteit, diversiteit,
+diversiteit.
+
+00:26:31.840 --> 00:26:35.120
+En we wilden een impact hebben op
+het imago van immaterieel erfgoed
+
+00:26:35.320 --> 00:26:38.160
+en wat dat effectief betekent in Vlaanderen...
+
+00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:41.160
+niet alleen typische voorbeelden zoals
+Carnaval
+
+00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:44.120
+en processies
+
+00:26:44.320 --> 00:26:46.520
+maar dat het veel meer is dan dat.
+
+00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:49.680
+Dus we wilden ook een
+
+00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:52.240
+een soort van algoritme, omdat
+
+00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:54.840
+er maar een paar elementen
+
+00:26:55.040 --> 00:26:57.720
+op de voorpagina terechtkomen
+
+00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.960
+ook wanneer je een deel van die elementen invoerd.
+
+00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:03.920
+Elke dag
+
+00:27:04.120 --> 00:27:07.160
+heeft elk element een andere
+plek
+
+00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:08.440
+in hoe het wordt weergeven.
+
+00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:11.160
+Het kan op de eerste pagina staan.
+of op de tweede.
+
+00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:16.200
+Ook wilden we algoritmes in de database.
+
+00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:18.800
+En dat alles omdat we
+
+00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:21.960
+deze diversiteit wilden tonen.
+
+00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:24.720
+Wij wilden dit
+
+00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:26.800
+op een totaal automatische manier.
+
+00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:31.040
+Maar het budget was niet voldoende.
+
+00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:33.560
+Dus de ontwikkelaars kwamen terug zeidende
+
+00:27:33.760 --> 00:27:37.080
+"Nee, we kunnen het zo niet doen.
+maar we hebben een ander
+idee.
+
+00:27:37.080 --> 00:27:37.840
+We wisselen het om.
+
+00:27:38.040 --> 00:27:40.360
+En met deze bar kunt u
+
+00:27:40.560 --> 00:27:43.160
+het een percentage geven waardoor het
+een lagere of hogere
+
+00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:46.000
+kans krijgt om op de voorpagina te komen.
+
+00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:48.280
+Of op de eerste of tweede of derde.
+
+00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.760
+En als we het over diversiteit hebben gaat het om
+
+00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:54.600
+de verschillende gebieden
+
+00:27:54.800 --> 00:27:56.560
+van cultureel erfgoed.
+
+00:27:56.760 --> 00:27:59.400
+Het gaat erom of het erfgoed is
+
+00:27:59.600 --> 00:28:02.800
+dat zich afspeelt in steden of
+
+00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:06.560
+op het platteland of dat
+
+00:28:06.760 --> 00:28:09.720
+voornamelijk door jongeren of oudere mensen wordt gemaakt.
+
+00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:12.240
+Dus deze verschillen
+
+00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:14.400
+wilden we allemaal weerspiegelen.
+
+00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:17.960
+En met dat idee geven we het
+
+00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:20.520
+een nieuw percentage, elke maand
+
+00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:22.000
+of elke week.
diff --git a/interview/interview-with-ellen_v3.mp3.txt b/interview/interview-with-ellen_v3.mp3.txt
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..54bd69b
--- /dev/null
+++ b/interview/interview-with-ellen_v3.mp3.txt
@@ -0,0 +1,2725 @@
+1
+00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,360
+For how long were you a
+moderator?
+
+2
+00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:09,280
+I started
+moderating the database in 2012.
+
+3
+00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,240
+I think it was launched in
+September 2012, but we
+
+4
+00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,840
+were involved in the project
+maybe March-April.
+
+5
+00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:23,040
+So, at the end of the
+development, they contacted
+us.
+
+6
+00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,320
+'They' are the
+government - the Flemish government - who
+
+7
+00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,520
+built this database and
+website.
+
+8
+00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,400
+And they attracted us because
+we had knowledge
+
+9
+00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,680
+of working with participatory
+
+10
+00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,640
+ways and methodologies.
+
+11
+00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,640
+And I worked on it just until
+
+12
+00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:47,640
+April 2019.
+
+13
+00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:49,640
+When was the transition to the
+new database?
+
+14
+00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,640
+The transition happened in 2018
+
+15
+00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,840
+from the beginning of the year
+and it was launched in the
+beginning of December.
+
+16
+00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:04,560
+What role did the Flemish
+government play in the development of the
+database?
+
+17
+00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:04,240
+The first and the second?
+Yes.
+
+18
+00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:05,920
+Yeah. Well
+
+19
+00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,200
+they are the owners of the
+database
+
+20
+00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,360
+and you can say it's a
+reflection of their policy.
+
+21
+00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,000
+So, their policy on intangible
+cultural heritage
+
+22
+00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,040
+is totally incorporated in
+this tool.
+
+23
+00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,920
+You can see it as a mirror of
+their policies.
+
+24
+00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,560
+There was a new policy since
+the end
+
+25
+00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,080
+of 2010, there was a new
+vision on how
+
+26
+00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,400
+to work with intangible
+cultural heritage in
+Flanders. And
+
+27
+00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,320
+2012 was a year that they
+started really to
+
+28
+00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,160
+develop the policy and put it
+into practice.
+
+29
+00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,280
+And that professional
+organizations
+
+30
+00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,840
+in Flanders were
+
+31
+00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,600
+beginning to understand what
+intangible
+
+32
+00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:49,880
+heritage is and what's it
+about.
+
+33
+00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,400
+So the government developed a
+tool to
+
+34
+00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,040
+sustain the work on intangible
+
+35
+00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:56,040
+cultural heritage.
+
+36
+00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,000
+For the volunteers - the
+
+37
+00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,760
+tradition
+bearers, the ICH intangible cultural heritage bearers - , but
+
+38
+00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,760
+also for the professionals.
+
+39
+00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,360
+Were you also involved in the
+process of developing the
+
+40
+00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,960
+database? How did you
+collaborate on that?
+
+41
+00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,520
+In the beginning it was mainly
+the government itself
+
+42
+00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:15,840
+who developed it.
+
+43
+00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:17,240
+With FARO.
+
+44
+00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,680
+They were mainly involved.
+
+45
+00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,320
+I think also PACKED was
+involved.
+
+46
+00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,760
+But PACKED was involved later
+on in the process, together
+
+47
+00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,680
+with us because of
+
+48
+00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,200
+that's an organization who has
+expertise on
+
+49
+00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:35,520
+digital heritage and we had
+expertise on
+participative methods.
+
+50
+00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,280
+So that's why they attracted
+us both, but
+
+51
+00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,000
+much later in the process.
+
+52
+00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,120
+So there was already
+a cooperation building the
+database.
+
+53
+00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,040
+They already had decided what
+they wanted, who
+
+54
+00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:47,600
+was going to build it.
+
+55
+00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,920
+How did you find the first
+database?
+
+56
+00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,000
+How did I find it?
+Interesting...
+
+57
+00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,960
+Challenging...
+
+58
+00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,200
+I was the moderator of the
+platform.
+
+59
+00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,760
+Then you have already two terms
+and what I'm
+
+60
+00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,920
+saying now has a very broad
+meaning.
+
+61
+00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,240
+They said it was a platform on
+the digital cultural heritage,
+
+62
+00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,320
+but
+with the word platform they
+meant it's
+
+63
+00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,040
+not only a digital tool, but
+
+64
+00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,600
+it's also a network of
+
+65
+00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,240
+professionals who are working
+on intangible
+
+66
+00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,920
+cultural heritage and also
+the volunteers
+or the tradition bearers.
+
+67
+00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,800
+So
+
+68
+00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,960
+, following up on that.
+
+69
+00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,600
+My role as a moderator was also
+
+70
+00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,280
+not only - let's say -
+the web master or
+
+71
+00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:32,880
+the content manager.
+
+72
+00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,400
+But I was also a central
+
+73
+00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,000
+person to this network.
+
+74
+00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,760
+And as an organization we tried
+to develop
+
+75
+00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,920
+this network the first
+years: 2012
+, 2013, 2014. That was a big part of my job
+
+76
+00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,120
+.
+
+77
+00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,280
+To get this network going.
+
+78
+00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,720
+So I also played a role in that
+
+79
+00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,320
+side and I was the center of
+
+80
+00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,840
+this big network of
+professionals,
+
+81
+00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,400
+tradition bearers, the
+government.
+
+82
+00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,400
+And yeah, I was in charge of
+the
+
+83
+00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,720
+flow of information and
+guidance
+
+84
+00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,400
+on every aspect and
+
+85
+00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:10,920
+in every way.
+
+86
+00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,680
+Next to content management
+and webmaster.
+
+87
+00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,920
+The content was created by
+professionals,
+
+88
+00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,920
+by tradition bearers, but not
+by me.
+
+89
+00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,480
+I was only an extra gate
+
+90
+00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,320
+who guided them to ask them
+extra
+
+91
+00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,640
+questions if some information
+was missing
+
+92
+00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:32,200
+and we did minimal editing on
+
+93
+00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,320
+the texts before it
+was put online.
+
+94
+00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,680
+So my interactions were very
+minimal.
+
+95
+00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,200
+And that's why the term
+moderator also came up because
+
+96
+00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,440
+that was very clear from the
+start, that this was my role.
+
+97
+00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,000
+That it was not to intervene
+too much in the
+
+98
+00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:53,080
+content but just manage it and
+moderate it.
+
+99
+00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,800
+Maybe you could describe how
+the process
+
+100
+00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,520
+of adding a new element to the
+
+101
+00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,160
+database goes?
+
+102
+00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,160
+There were different ways
+
+103
+00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,200
+to get in contact with people.
+
+104
+00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,760
+So, it starts with people who
+
+105
+00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,520
+wanted to add their - you say
+element
+
+106
+00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,160
+I say
+intangible cultural heritage -
+to the database.
+
+107
+00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,600
+Some people just heard
+about the database.
+
+108
+00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,320
+Some people just heard about
+
+109
+00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,120
+the official inventory for
+intangible cultural heritage
+in Flanders.
+
+110
+00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,760
+That was usually
+
+111
+00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,520
+the most common that people
+heard about the inventory
+
+112
+00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,960
+and they eventually came up
+with the question: how can we
+
+113
+00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,480
+get our intangible cultural
+heritage on
+
+114
+00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,200
+this list, as they see it on
+the inventory.
+
+115
+00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,720
+So that was usually the most
+common question and
+
+116
+00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,360
+how they reached us.
+
+117
+00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,880
+Sometimes it was just us
+
+118
+00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,000
+or other professional
+organisations,
+
+119
+00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,000
+who contacted people and on the
+other hand, we also organised
+some
+
+120
+00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,720
+workshops and stuff like that
+; promotional
+
+121
+00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,200
+actions to promote the site
+and the database.
+
+122
+00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,360
+So that once people decide yes
+
+123
+00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,000
+we want to add our intangible
+
+124
+00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,280
+cultural heritage, they could
+ask for that.
+
+125
+00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,640
+That was how the process was in
+
+126
+00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:16,000
+the first database.
+
+127
+00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,480
+There it was that they could
+ask for a login, a
+
+128
+00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,920
+personal one, I would provide
+it to them.
+
+129
+00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,760
+Then they get access to the
+actual database.
+
+130
+00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,080
+They have a manual.
+
+131
+00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:29,800
+On how to work with a database
+with
+
+132
+00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,200
+explanations at the different
+fields.
+
+133
+00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,960
+What is what is really asked
+here
+
+134
+00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,440
+and then they could just go
+ahead.
+
+135
+00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,360
+But what we also did and what
+we strongly advised
+
+136
+00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,240
+was to have a conversation
+with one of our colleague
+
+137
+00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,760
+organizations that
+
+138
+00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:47,720
+was linked to their intangible
+culture.
+
+139
+00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:53,240
+To make it more clear, let's
+say, someone
+
+140
+00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,840
+who would want to add Carnival
+or something
+
+141
+00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,440
+like that, then we would guide
+them through an organization
+
+142
+00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,080
+who worked on social traditions
+
+143
+00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:04,600
+and that organization would
+have a conversation with
+
+144
+00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,800
+them on what is intangible
+heritage.
+
+145
+00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,320
+What is a policy on
+intangible heritage, so that
+they would
+
+146
+00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,920
+fully grasp the idea of what
+intangible
+
+147
+00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,680
+heritage really is and what it
+meant
+
+148
+00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,080
+and where the convention
+stands for
+where the policy stands for,
+
+149
+00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,760
+what it meant for them in
+practice and that it's really
+all
+
+150
+00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,520
+about working together and
+providing a future
+
+151
+00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,560
+for your intangible cultural
+heritage and keep it
+
+152
+00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:28,960
+active and alive.
+
+153
+00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,800
+And it's not about the history
+
+154
+00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,360
+of heritage but it's more
+about the
+
+155
+00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,880
+future. And once they
+
+156
+00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,080
+got that idea, then this
+organization
+
+157
+00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,960
+also guided them not wrote
+
+158
+00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,120
+the text, but they guided them
+into the process of
+
+159
+00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,640
+"Okay how are you now gonna
+describe it? How
+
+160
+00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,800
+would other people describe it
+? Who is involved
+
+161
+00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,400
+? What actions do you take to
+create
+
+162
+00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,720
+a future for your intangible
+cultural heritage?".
+
+163
+00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,040
+Actually that was a large
+process most of the times.
+
+164
+00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,760
+Some people just described
+their heritage
+
+165
+00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,480
+and described their community,
+
+166
+00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,720
+but it was also necessary
+
+167
+00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:16,920
+, otherwise you
+couldn't be visible
+
+168
+00:08:17,340 --> 00:08:18,640
+in the front of the database, on the website.
+
+169
+00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,200
+So most of the people really
+did this full process.
+
+170
+00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,400
+Not everyone. In
+
+171
+00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,920
+the end it mostly led to
+
+172
+00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,680
+filing requests for also
+
+173
+00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,440
+being mentioned on the
+inventory of intangible
+culture.
+
+174
+00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,520
+Because of this whole process
+that they had to
+
+175
+00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,040
+undertake that
+
+176
+00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,240
+was usually the outcome.
+
+177
+00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,040
+So this was not my role.
+
+178
+00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,720
+My role was more like OK get
+
+179
+00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,400
+people involved and explain
+
+180
+00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,960
+what the process is about and
+refer them to other
+
+181
+00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,840
+organizations who then
+
+182
+00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:58,960
+did this whole process
+with the people
+
+183
+00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,960
+and then once they had written
+the texts and have
+
+184
+00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,480
+come to a consensus about the
+texts that
+
+185
+00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:07,440
+they wrote, then they got back
+to the
+
+186
+00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,960
+database and started really
+filing in the content.
+
+187
+00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,240
+And then I would just make some
+little
+
+188
+00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,640
+editing stuff or
+
+189
+00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,200
+say "Oh maybe it's better to
+use that picture", but
+
+190
+00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,560
+my involvement was nothing
+more than that anymore at that
+time.
+
+191
+00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,280
+I'm also wondering about the
+part where
+
+192
+00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,280
+the different
+parties that were involved had
+to reach a consensus.
+
+193
+00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:33,840
+Yeah.
+
+194
+00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,560
+Are there any traces
+
+195
+00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,040
+in the inventory about the
+process -
+
+196
+00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,200
+of how they reached a consensus
+?
+Mhm. Or
+
+197
+00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,560
+of the moments where they
+didn't reach a
+consensus, for example.
+
+198
+00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,680
+Not
+
+199
+00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,640
+in the database itself,
+because it was
+
+200
+00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,680
+a process between people.
+
+201
+00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,960
+It wasn't a digital process at
+that time.
+
+202
+00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,560
+So, the texts that you see
+
+203
+00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,880
+on the website that are texts
+that
+
+204
+00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,520
+they reached a consensus
+about,
+
+205
+00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,160
+that's the case certainly now
+at this
+
+206
+00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:10,320
+point with a new database.
+
+207
+00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,080
+If someone isn't in consensus
+with how
+
+208
+00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,720
+it is mentioned, they are free
+and they can upload
+
+209
+00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,960
+another version and it stands
+next to each other.
+
+210
+00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,720
+That wasn't the case in the
+previous.
+
+211
+00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,880
+But now the website is open to
+that.
+
+212
+00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,040
+Has anyone actually made use of
+this feature
+
+213
+00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,160
+, at least until April 2019?
+
+214
+00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:30,680
+Yes.
+
+215
+00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,000
+So far I don't think so.
+
+216
+00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,720
+The professionals really played
+
+217
+00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,560
+the role of mediator the
+
+218
+00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,840
+past 6-7 years.
+
+219
+00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,640
+That was the idea also
+
+220
+00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,560
+of the policy to bring people
+
+221
+00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,600
+together on intangible
+cultural heritage
+
+222
+00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,960
+and it all came back from the
+idea they can learn from each
+
+223
+00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,640
+other and it strengthens the
+
+224
+00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,440
+intangible cultural heritage
+if people work together
+
+225
+00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,200
+and if they share their
+experience and I think for a
+big part
+
+226
+00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,040
+that's that's really true.
+
+227
+00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,680
+But you still have different
+voices
+
+228
+00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,240
+and different meanings and
+when 0 I can
+
+229
+00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,400
+understand your question when
+it comes to texts.
+
+230
+00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,200
+People can have another vision
+on
+
+231
+00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,680
+how something is described or
+if
+
+232
+00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,480
+they want to feel connected to
+it, but
+
+233
+00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:25,240
+in the past they got to the
+point of a consensus.
+
+234
+00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,920
+One of the examples that you
+
+235
+00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,520
+wrote in your email was about
+the Giants,
+
+236
+00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,040
+but that - actually I am
+actually not the
+
+237
+00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,520
+person who who can speak
+widely about it,
+
+238
+00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,080
+because it wasn't one of our
+projects - and the
+organization
+
+239
+00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,280
+who has done that this
+was LECA, now they're part of
+Histories.
+
+240
+00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,080
+They were one of the first and
+actually they had a process
+
+241
+00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,840
+for 7 or 8, 9 years because
+
+242
+00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,920
+in France you have a lot of
+giants and
+
+243
+00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,320
+a lot of small communities
+
+244
+00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,800
+but actually they're all part
+of a bigger community
+
+245
+00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,440
+of people who feel
+
+246
+00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,960
+strongly about the Giants and
+keep them alive and
+
+247
+00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,760
+then they said "well we have
+to get those people together".
+
+248
+00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,360
+And step by step, year by
+year,
+
+249
+00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,040
+they started to work with
+these people and
+
+250
+00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,040
+attract more and more people.
+
+251
+00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,640
+And support them and actually
+in
+
+252
+00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,440
+the end they created a lot of
+cells
+
+253
+00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,520
+in different regions
+with people
+
+254
+00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,000
+who were more or less
+involved.
+
+255
+00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,560
+They organized workshops in
+different regions and so
+
+256
+00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,480
+a total movement actually
+arose
+
+257
+00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:33,000
+and it came to an association
+for the
+
+258
+00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,120
+whole of Flanders on this
+Giant
+
+259
+00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:37,440
+culture actually.
+
+260
+00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,080
+And then they applied for a
+place on
+
+261
+00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,800
+the inventory as a whole,
+
+262
+00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,480
+but I have to say before
+
+263
+00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:48,840
+that smaller communities
+already applied
+
+264
+00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:50,200
+for an individual
+
+265
+00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,080
+culture in the city, but
+
+266
+00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,040
+it felt really strong that now
+they can speak of
+
+267
+00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,000
+a Giant culture in Flanders.
+
+268
+00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,160
+Then they tried to
+
+269
+00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,680
+put the differences
+
+270
+00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,600
+into the text on this culture
+but of course
+
+271
+00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,200
+you have smaller aspects of
+
+272
+00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,720
+culture in a smaller region
+that are different.
+
+273
+00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,440
+But yes you can find some main
+
+274
+00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,320
+lines and teams that
+
+275
+00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:21,720
+apply to them all.
+
+276
+00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,320
+They did a good job, but
+
+277
+00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,160
+people are now certainly also
+
+278
+00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,840
+able to fill in the form
+
+279
+00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:31,720
+just on their own culture.
+
+280
+00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,960
+That's what I'm trying to say
+so we took
+
+281
+00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,480
+that idea of "there has to be
+a consensus and
+
+282
+00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:40,320
+everyone has to work together
+", we
+
+283
+00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,920
+took that down a notch in
+
+284
+00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,840
+the second database now.
+
+285
+00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,560
+So now it's more everyone, even
+a small community
+
+286
+00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,120
+, even a person can fill in a
+form
+
+287
+00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,040
+so that the giant of a small
+community
+
+288
+00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,760
+is also visible on the
+website.
+
+289
+00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,160
+So the two ways
+
+290
+00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,640
+lie ahead now next to each other in
+the new database.
+Yeah.
+
+291
+00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,480
+How was this transition made
+? Was the
+
+292
+00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:11,240
+focus on a multiplicity
+
+293
+00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,760
+of views coming from
+
+294
+00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,360
+the organization Werk
+plaats Immaterieel Eerfgoed or
+
+295
+00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:19,160
+was it coming from the
+Flemish government?
+
+296
+00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,000
+I think it was
+
+297
+00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,680
+from both ways.
+
+298
+00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,200
+And there is also another organ
+
+299
+00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,920
+in this whole process and
+that's a commission
+
+300
+00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,640
+of experts and
+
+301
+00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,680
+they advise the minister on
+
+302
+00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,320
+which elements should be
+
+303
+00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,480
+on the inventory.
+
+304
+00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,680
+So they really went over all
+these appliances
+
+305
+00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,840
+and they also had made some
+
+306
+00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,720
+evaluations on the topic of
+the
+
+307
+00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,360
+past years and made some
+suggestions.
+
+308
+00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,240
+So when the years went by
+
+309
+00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,440
+faces headed into the same
+direction
+
+310
+00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,040
+because we all noticed that
+"OK.
+
+311
+00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,120
+This way of working demands a
+lot of the
+people, ir demands a lot of the
+
+312
+00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,360
+professionals who are guiding
+them.
+
+313
+00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,960
+Certainly
+
+314
+00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,400
+it has has pros, many.
+
+315
+00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,120
+We have done terrific work on
+that,
+
+316
+00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,840
+but in terms of
+
+317
+00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,480
+displaying on a website on
+
+318
+00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,400
+inventorying ICH in Flanders
+and displaying
+
+319
+00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,560
+the diversity of ICH in
+Flanders...
+
+320
+00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,160
+These two processes
+
+321
+00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,720
+can come together. They're
+just
+
+322
+00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,080
+counterproductive actually,
+because it
+
+323
+00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,160
+took such a long time to get
+to a text,
+
+324
+00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,680
+so they can display it and
+that's not the
+
+325
+00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,600
+match we're trying to make
+
+326
+00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,280
+an inventory of ICHin Flanders
+that's
+
+327
+00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,400
+really diverse also.
+
+328
+00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,080
+Was this one of the main
+reasons to move to a new
+database?
+
+329
+00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,160
+Yes it was. Because
+
+330
+00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,680
+the old database and the
+content that
+
+331
+00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,240
+was in the database didn't
+show the
+
+332
+00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,320
+diversity of ICH in Flanders
+and had problems with that.
+
+333
+00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,840
+So we made an analysis of what
+is going on
+
+334
+00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,920
+here and there were a lot of
+technical issues,
+
+335
+00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,800
+barriers that slow down that
+process
+
+336
+00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,320
+next to the process on how we
+work with
+
+337
+00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,840
+the tradition bearers and
+the policy and what they
+
+338
+00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,760
+demanded of
+
+339
+00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,400
+work from these volunteers and
+that took a long
+
+340
+00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,920
+time for them to develop
+
+341
+00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:36,120
+and this is almost
+counterproductive to the
+inventorying ICH in Flanders.
+
+342
+00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,400
+And then you create an image of
+ICH in Flanders
+
+343
+00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,000
+only with the ICH
+
+344
+00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,160
+of people who already know the
+way to the professional
+organizations.
+
+345
+00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,920
+And then again when you look at
+look at it
+
+346
+00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,800
+from the perspective of the
+website only typical
+
+347
+00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,360
+ICH is presented there.
+
+348
+00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,960
+So it's a conflict. A lot of
+steps
+
+349
+00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,880
+had to be taken and you had
+a policy,
+
+350
+00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,760
+you had the process on how to
+
+351
+00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,360
+apply for the inventory, that
+are
+
+352
+00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,600
+all barriers,
+
+353
+00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,880
+but you also had the digital
+
+354
+00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,640
+barriers that were definitely
+
+355
+00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,880
+a big part of it because it
+was too difficult to work
+with.
+
+356
+00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,880
+So
+
+357
+00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,120
+in one year we worked on the
+three.
+
+358
+00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,720
+Did you find that being a
+moderator
+
+359
+00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,080
+for the NGO the
+Werkplaats Immaterieel Erfgoed
+
+360
+00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,720
+was different from being a
+moderator for elements
+
+361
+00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,040
+that went on the Flemish
+inventory?
+
+362
+00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,920
+It's true that my role was
+different than
+
+363
+00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,200
+other colleagues of mine in
+the NGO.
+
+364
+00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,120
+And that sometimes it did
+
+365
+00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,480
+in our day to day work it
+
+366
+00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,480
+did came up that I was more
+linked to the government.
+
+367
+00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:53,920
+Or that's how I felt it.
+
+368
+00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:56,640
+Sometimes I have to say "but no
+Ellen, no, that's not true".
+
+369
+00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,160
+But I had the feeling that I
+was moderating a
+
+370
+00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:01,800
+tool of them and
+
+371
+00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,120
+that is something that I was
+always conscious about.
+
+372
+00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,360
+It's a very direct line.
+
+373
+00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,840
+In the work we have done as an
+organization
+
+374
+00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,480
+, we could more develop our own
+
+375
+00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,160
+lines and vision on the
+website.
+We could.
+
+376
+00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,160
+But it's more for working and
+
+377
+00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:25,960
+finding and way in. Okay how
+far
+
+378
+00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,360
+can we go as an
+organization whose moderating
+this tool?
+
+379
+00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,200
+And when do we have to
+
+380
+00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,760
+ask feedback or approval
+
+381
+00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,080
+from the government if we want
+to do it like this or like
+that.
+
+382
+00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,520
+And then I was a person who was
+responsible for that.
+
+383
+00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,600
+So they felt freer
+in their work
+
+384
+00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,960
+than I could ever be. Me
+
+385
+00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:50,840
+personally and as a moderator.
+
+386
+00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,480
+So yeah it was reflected in my
+
+387
+00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,200
+my work and that's why I was
+really happy
+
+388
+00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,800
+that at the end I could guide
+
+389
+00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,960
+this project as a project
+management to do
+
+390
+00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,000
+the follow up tool in 2018
+
+391
+00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,840
+because at that time we could
+as an organization
+
+392
+00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,480
+and me also my
+
+393
+00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,320
+personal expertise in
+moderating this website, it
+
+394
+00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,400
+all could come together.
+
+395
+00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,000
+And at that time we also built
+up an expertise
+
+396
+00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,720
+or voice as an organization
+and
+
+397
+00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,120
+we're stronger than in 2012.
+
+398
+00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,800
+It was nice to work in
+
+399
+00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,400
+this way with the government
+so that we could
+
+400
+00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,000
+develop a tool that everybody
+was happy about.
+
+401
+00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:36,200
+Yes this is the way forward.
+
+402
+00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,760
+This is what we need to do to
+
+403
+00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,000
+turn this around.
+
+404
+00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,240
+So at the end we were more... I
+was more..
+.
+
+405
+00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:46,160
+Yeah I could say..
+
+406
+00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,200
+.
+
+407
+00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,000
+More colleagues also with the
+government not in a way
+
+408
+00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,920
+like what my colleagues on the
+Werkplaats,
+
+409
+00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,520
+but we could speak
+
+410
+00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,200
+more freely to each other and
+everyone has
+
+411
+00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,360
+his position and his expertise
+and is valued for that.
+
+412
+00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,040
+So that was another way of
+working than 6, 7 years before
+that.
+
+413
+00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:11,240
+How
+
+414
+00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,120
+do you negotiate the
+differences between
+
+415
+00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,120
+the official
+Flemish inventory and
+
+416
+00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,800
+the organization's inventory.
+
+417
+00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:29,000
+Yeah.
+
+418
+00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,600
+That's one of the changes that
+was made in
+
+419
+00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,920
+developing the sector, because
+
+420
+00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:39,480
+like I said before in the
+first tool the restrictions
+
+421
+00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,120
+were rather high.
+
+422
+00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,320
+So there had to be a
+description.
+
+423
+00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,280
+Of the Intangible Cultural
+Heritage and then it's
+
+424
+00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,960
+matched with a definition of
+intangible cultural heritage.
+
+425
+00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,320
+The parameters that are that
+you can find in the
+definition.
+
+426
+00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,000
+One important one for example
+
+427
+00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,120
+is: is it still alive
+
+428
+00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,000
+and active? Are
+
+429
+00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,840
+people still doing it? Is
+
+430
+00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,480
+there a future for it? So
+that's one aspect.
+
+431
+00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,040
+When people enter their
+information that was one of
+the things
+
+432
+00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,880
+that I would really look into
+
+433
+00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,400
+and ask extra questions
+whether
+
+434
+00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,560
+or not it was for the
+inventory or not that was
+
+435
+00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,680
+for example a very big issue.
+
+436
+00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,680
+But also as certainly on the
+first
+
+437
+00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,160
+database people had to
+describe their community.
+
+438
+00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,280
+And
+
+439
+00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,880
+the government was really
+strict about it: from they
+have to
+
+440
+00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,440
+describe their community
+, otherwise they cannot be
+visible in the front.
+
+441
+00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,160
+So they can be in the back-end,
+they can work on their
+
+442
+00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,000
+content, but it can only be
+
+443
+00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,680
+made visible once all this
+information is included.
+
+444
+00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,640
+One extra was that they had to
+show
+
+445
+00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,200
+that they already had made
+some
+
+446
+00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,280
+safeguarding measures.
+
+447
+00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,560
+So that was three very big
+descriptions, we think.
+
+448
+00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,120
+Because what also comes up is
+that you have
+
+449
+00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,240
+to have prior and informed
+consent.
+
+450
+00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,240
+I don't know if you're familiar
+with that.
+
+451
+00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,960
+That's something that is strict
+in the convention.
+
+452
+00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,480
+You have to have prior and
+informed consent to call
+
+453
+00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,080
+something intangible cultural
+heritage.
+
+454
+00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,680
+So the government felt really
+strongly
+
+455
+00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,720
+about and that was a really
+strong restriction
+
+456
+00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,200
+for me to moderate
+this content
+
+457
+00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,240
+and that would lead up to
+asking extra
+
+458
+00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,120
+questions to the people.
+
+459
+00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,720
+So for 6, 7 years, me
+
+460
+00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,520
+as a moderator,
+
+461
+00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,720
+there was almost nothing that
+I could moderate
+
+462
+00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,240
+and make visible in the front
+
+463
+00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:46,560
+other than the inventory
+
+464
+00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,240
+for cultural heritage because
+the standards are so high.
+
+465
+00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,320
+So there was almost no
+difference.
+
+466
+00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,960
+And that's something that we
+made notable to
+
+467
+00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,400
+the government and now the
+restrictions are much lesser.
+
+468
+00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,160
+So we pulled it apart.
+
+469
+00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:05,880
+So now people who want to make
+their intangible
+
+470
+00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,880
+cultural heritage visible they
+can.
+
+471
+00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,480
+They only have a form.
+
+472
+00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,720
+And five six questions that
+they had to fill in.
+
+473
+00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,360
+And then they click a bottom
+where they
+
+474
+00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,000
+say yes I have read the
+definition
+
+475
+00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,720
+of intangible cultural
+heritage and this is
+intangible
+
+476
+00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,000
+cultural heritage to me.
+
+477
+00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,160
+And that's
+
+478
+00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:29,120
+also all that the convention
+asks for.
+
+479
+00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,640
+But the government interpreted
+the
+
+480
+00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,160
+convention at a very high
+level.
+
+481
+00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:37,600
+Difficult level.
+
+482
+00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,480
+So we tried to narrow it down
+
+483
+00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:46,680
+and split it out.
+
+484
+00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,520
+The moderator now, he can just
+look
+
+485
+00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,120
+into the texts that come up on
+
+486
+00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,720
+this little forum and
+
+487
+00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,080
+if people are interested in
+
+488
+00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,720
+applying for the inventory
+they can
+
+489
+00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,520
+start to fill in another form
+with
+
+490
+00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,680
+more questions but also easier
+questions
+
+491
+00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,240
+than ever before to fill in a
+
+492
+00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,840
+form to apply for the
+inventory and they
+
+493
+00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,520
+can also
+
+494
+00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,480
+get in contact with other
+organizations if they wanted.
+
+495
+00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,720
+But also that is not necessary
+anymore. And
+
+496
+00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:20,600
+previous times it was
+necessary.
+
+497
+00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,720
+When
+
+498
+00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,440
+you made the transition from
+the previous database to the
+new
+
+499
+00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:28,080
+database,
+what happened with these elements?
+
+500
+00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,680
+Very important in this
+
+501
+00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,680
+process was it was not only
+a new database
+
+502
+00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,440
+, but it was also a new way of
+reporting.
+
+503
+00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,120
+I don't know if you are
+familiar with that concept
+? That every
+
+504
+00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,000
+year elements who are on the
+inventory
+
+505
+00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,640
+, they had to make a report on
+how they
+
+506
+00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,120
+develop safeguarding measures
+that year and how it has
+evolved.
+
+507
+00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,960
+And also they were asked to
+
+508
+00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,800
+look into the description of
+the heritage
+
+509
+00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,680
+and make changes if something
+
+510
+00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,040
+changed, or has come up, or
+add something or.
+
+511
+00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,000
+But not many have done that
+in the past years.
+
+512
+00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,280
+So we thought well there's a
+new database now.
+
+513
+00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:15,120
+But it's also a different way
+of working.
+
+514
+00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,840
+So we kept them informed.
+
+515
+00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,880
+We thought that was very
+important.
+
+516
+00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,560
+On the new process, but also
+what we
+
+517
+00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,080
+were aiming for with this new
+website and
+
+518
+00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,080
+this new database and actually
+it was the government
+
+519
+00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:29,640
+who led that process.
+
+520
+00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,160
+I made suggestions on how to do
+that, but they were in
+
+521
+00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:34,240
+contact with the communities.
+
+522
+00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,080
+So we were restricted
+
+523
+00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,520
+the number of
+characters that a text could
+have
+
+524
+00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,600
+and a lot of texts were for
+example I'm
+
+525
+00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,480
+giving you a very straight
+clear example.
+
+526
+00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,080
+The texts were very long. So we
+narrowed it down
+
+527
+00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,920
+and we did edit
+
+528
+00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:57,360
+the texts to make it more web
+friendly
+
+529
+00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,640
+and then we gave it back to
+the communities,
+
+530
+00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,160
+we informed that we were going
+to do that and then we gave it
+back to the
+
+531
+00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:04,680
+communities and we didn't
+
+532
+00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,600
+enter any new texts before we
+got their consent.
+
+533
+00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,360
+Looking at the experts from
+their new database
+
+534
+00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,440
+one column that stands out is
+that of weight,
+
+535
+00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,040
+referring of course to the
+order in which the elements
+are
+
+536
+00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:18,960
+displayed on the website.
+
+537
+00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,440
+And most of the elements seem
+to have a different weight
+from another.
+
+538
+00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,920
+Could you mention how that
+selection is made?
+
+539
+00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,560
+The grand idea about the new
+website was all
+
+540
+00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,640
+diversity, diversity,
+diversity. And we
+
+541
+00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,120
+wanted to have an impact on
+the image of intangible
+cultural
+
+542
+00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,160
+heritage and what it all can be
+and is in Flanders
+
+543
+00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:41,160
+and not only just typical
+Carnival
+
+544
+00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,120
+and Processions
+
+545
+00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,520
+but that is much more than
+that.
+
+546
+00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,680
+So we wanted to have also
+
+547
+00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,240
+a sort of algorithm, because
+
+548
+00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,840
+there's only a few elements
+that can be shown
+
+549
+00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,720
+on the front page and also
+
+550
+00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,960
+when you enter the part of the
+elements.
+
+551
+00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,920
+Also there, there is every day
+
+552
+00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,160
+, every element has a different
+place
+
+553
+00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:08,440
+in how it's presented.
+
+554
+00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,160
+It can be on the first page
+it can be the second.
+
+555
+00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:16,200
+We wanted it also to change to
+have algorithms in the
+database.
+
+556
+00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,800
+And that's all because we
+wanted to show
+
+557
+00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,960
+this diversity of elements,
+
+558
+00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,720
+but we would have done it in a
+full
+
+559
+00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,800
+automatic way.
+
+560
+00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,040
+But the budget wasn't
+sufficient enough.
+
+561
+00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,560
+So the developers came back to
+us
+
+562
+00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,080
+and said "no we can't do it
+that way but we have another
+idea.
+
+563
+00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:37,840
+We switch it.
+
+564
+00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,360
+And with this bar you can give
+
+565
+00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,160
+it a percentage and then it
+has a lower or higher
+
+566
+00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:46,000
+chance to come on the front
+page
+
+567
+00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,280
+or to come on the first or the
+second or the third".
+
+568
+00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,760
+And when we speak of diversity
+it's on different
+
+569
+00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,600
+levels: it's the level of the
+different domains
+
+570
+00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,560
+of cultural heritage.
+
+571
+00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,400
+It's whether it's heritage
+
+572
+00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,800
+that takes place in cities or
+
+573
+00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,560
+in the mainland or that's
+
+574
+00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,720
+mainly done by elders or by
+youngsters.
+
+575
+00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,240
+So these differences, we
+
+576
+00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,400
+wanted to reflect it all.
+
+577
+00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,960
+And with that in our back of
+our head we would manually
+
+578
+00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,520
+give it a different percentage
+every month,
+
+579
+00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,000
+every week.
diff --git a/interview/interview-with-ellen_v3.mp3.vtt b/interview/interview-with-ellen_v3.mp3.vtt
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..1c722d4
--- /dev/null
+++ b/interview/interview-with-ellen_v3.mp3.vtt
@@ -0,0 +1,2728 @@
+WEBVTT
+
+1
+00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.360
+For how long were you a
+moderator?
+
+2
+00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:09.280
+I started
+moderating the database in 2012.
+
+3
+00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:13.240
+I think it was launched in
+September 2012, but we
+
+4
+00:00:13.440 --> 00:00:16.840
+were involved in the project
+maybe March-April.
+
+5
+00:00:17.040 --> 00:00:23.040
+So, at the end of the
+development, they contacted
+us.
+
+6
+00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:27.320
+'They' are the
+government - the Flemish government - who
+
+7
+00:00:27.520 --> 00:00:31.520
+built this database and
+website.
+
+8
+00:00:31.720 --> 00:00:34.400
+And they attracted us because
+we had knowledge
+
+9
+00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.680
+of working with participatory
+
+10
+00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:41.640
+ways and methodologies.
+
+11
+00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:45.640
+And I worked on it just until
+
+12
+00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:47.640
+April 2019.
+
+13
+00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:49.640
+When was the transition to the
+new database?
+
+14
+00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:52.640
+The transition happened in 2018
+
+15
+00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:58.840
+from the beginning of the year
+and it was launched in the
+beginning of December.
+
+16
+00:01:03.080 --> 00:01:04.560
+What role did the Flemish
+government play in the development of the
+database?
+
+17
+00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:04.240
+The first and the second?
+Yes.
+
+18
+00:01:04.440 --> 00:01:05.920
+Yeah. Well
+
+19
+00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:09.200
+they are the owners of the
+database
+
+20
+00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:13.360
+and you can say it's a
+reflection of their policy.
+
+21
+00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:16.000
+So, their policy on intangible
+cultural heritage
+
+22
+00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:19.040
+is totally incorporated in
+this tool.
+
+23
+00:01:19.240 --> 00:01:22.920
+You can see it as a mirror of
+their policies.
+
+24
+00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:25.560
+There was a new policy since
+the end
+
+25
+00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.080
+of 2010, there was a new
+vision on how
+
+26
+00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.400
+to work with intangible
+cultural heritage in
+Flanders. And
+
+27
+00:01:31.600 --> 00:01:34.320
+2012 was a year that they
+started really to
+
+28
+00:01:34.520 --> 00:01:38.160
+develop the policy and put it
+into practice.
+
+29
+00:01:38.360 --> 00:01:41.280
+And that professional
+organizations
+
+30
+00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:44.840
+in Flanders were
+
+31
+00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:47.600
+beginning to understand what
+intangible
+
+32
+00:01:47.800 --> 00:01:49.880
+heritage is and what's it
+about.
+
+33
+00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:52.400
+So the government developed a
+tool to
+
+34
+00:01:52.600 --> 00:01:55.040
+sustain the work on intangible
+
+35
+00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:56.040
+cultural heritage.
+
+36
+00:01:56.240 --> 00:02:00.000
+For the volunteers - the
+
+37
+00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.760
+tradition
+bearers, the ICH intangible cultural heritage bearers - , but
+
+38
+00:02:04.960 --> 00:02:06.760
+also for the professionals.
+
+39
+00:02:06.960 --> 00:02:09.360
+Were you also involved in the
+process of developing the
+
+40
+00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:11.960
+database? How did you
+collaborate on that?
+
+41
+00:02:12.160 --> 00:02:14.520
+In the beginning it was mainly
+the government itself
+
+42
+00:02:14.720 --> 00:02:15.840
+who developed it.
+
+43
+00:02:16.040 --> 00:02:17.240
+With FARO.
+
+44
+00:02:17.440 --> 00:02:19.680
+They were mainly involved.
+
+45
+00:02:19.880 --> 00:02:22.320
+I think also PACKED was
+involved.
+
+46
+00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.760
+But PACKED was involved later
+on in the process, together
+
+47
+00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:27.680
+with us because of
+
+48
+00:02:27.880 --> 00:02:30.200
+that's an organization who has
+expertise on
+
+49
+00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:35.520
+digital heritage and we had
+expertise on
+participative methods.
+
+50
+00:02:35.720 --> 00:02:38.280
+So that's why they attracted
+us both, but
+
+51
+00:02:38.480 --> 00:02:40.000
+much later in the process.
+
+52
+00:02:40.200 --> 00:02:43.120
+So there was already
+a cooperation building the
+database.
+
+53
+00:02:43.320 --> 00:02:46.040
+They already had decided what
+they wanted, who
+
+54
+00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:47.600
+was going to build it.
+
+55
+00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.920
+How did you find the first
+database?
+
+56
+00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:55.000
+How did I find it?
+Interesting...
+
+57
+00:02:55.200 --> 00:02:56.960
+Challenging...
+
+58
+00:02:57.160 --> 00:02:59.200
+I was the moderator of the
+platform.
+
+59
+00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:01.760
+Then you have already two terms
+and what I'm
+
+60
+00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:04.920
+saying now has a very broad
+meaning.
+
+61
+00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:08.240
+They said it was a platform on
+the digital cultural heritage,
+
+62
+00:03:08.440 --> 00:03:10.320
+but
+with the word platform they
+meant it's
+
+63
+00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:13.040
+not only a digital tool, but
+
+64
+00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.600
+it's also a network of
+
+65
+00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:18.240
+professionals who are working
+on intangible
+
+66
+00:03:18.440 --> 00:03:20.920
+cultural heritage and also
+the volunteers
+or the tradition bearers.
+
+67
+00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.800
+So
+
+68
+00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:25.960
+, following up on that.
+
+69
+00:03:26.160 --> 00:03:28.600
+My role as a moderator was also
+
+70
+00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.280
+not only - let's say -
+the web master or
+
+71
+00:03:31.480 --> 00:03:32.880
+the content manager.
+
+72
+00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:35.400
+But I was also a central
+
+73
+00:03:35.600 --> 00:03:38.000
+person to this network.
+
+74
+00:03:38.200 --> 00:03:40.760
+And as an organization we tried
+to develop
+
+75
+00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:43.920
+this network the first
+years: 2012
+, 2013, 2014. That was a big part of my job
+
+76
+00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.120
+.
+
+77
+00:03:47.320 --> 00:03:49.280
+To get this network going.
+
+78
+00:03:49.480 --> 00:03:52.720
+So I also played a role in that
+
+79
+00:03:52.920 --> 00:03:55.320
+side and I was the center of
+
+80
+00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:57.840
+this big network of
+professionals,
+
+81
+00:03:58.040 --> 00:04:00.400
+tradition bearers, the
+government.
+
+82
+00:04:00.600 --> 00:04:03.400
+And yeah, I was in charge of
+the
+
+83
+00:04:03.600 --> 00:04:06.720
+flow of information and
+guidance
+
+84
+00:04:06.920 --> 00:04:09.400
+on every aspect and
+
+85
+00:04:09.600 --> 00:04:10.920
+in every way.
+
+86
+00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:14.680
+Next to content management
+and webmaster.
+
+87
+00:04:14.880 --> 00:04:17.920
+The content was created by
+professionals,
+
+88
+00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:20.920
+by tradition bearers, but not
+by me.
+
+89
+00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:23.480
+I was only an extra gate
+
+90
+00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:26.320
+who guided them to ask them
+extra
+
+91
+00:04:26.520 --> 00:04:29.640
+questions if some information
+was missing
+
+92
+00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:32.200
+and we did minimal editing on
+
+93
+00:04:32.400 --> 00:04:36.320
+the texts before it
+was put online.
+
+94
+00:04:36.520 --> 00:04:38.680
+So my interactions were very
+minimal.
+
+95
+00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:41.200
+And that's why the term
+moderator also came up because
+
+96
+00:04:41.400 --> 00:04:45.440
+that was very clear from the
+start, that this was my role.
+
+97
+00:04:45.640 --> 00:04:48.000
+That it was not to intervene
+too much in the
+
+98
+00:04:48.200 --> 00:04:53.080
+content but just manage it and
+moderate it.
+
+99
+00:04:53.280 --> 00:04:55.800
+Maybe you could describe how
+the process
+
+100
+00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:58.520
+of adding a new element to the
+
+101
+00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.160
+database goes?
+
+102
+00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:05.160
+There were different ways
+
+103
+00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:07.200
+to get in contact with people.
+
+104
+00:05:07.400 --> 00:05:09.760
+So, it starts with people who
+
+105
+00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:12.520
+wanted to add their - you say
+element
+
+106
+00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.160
+I say
+intangible cultural heritage -
+to the database.
+
+107
+00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:19.600
+Some people just heard
+about the database.
+
+108
+00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:22.320
+Some people just heard about
+
+109
+00:05:22.520 --> 00:05:26.120
+the official inventory for
+intangible cultural heritage
+in Flanders.
+
+110
+00:05:26.320 --> 00:05:28.760
+That was usually
+
+111
+00:05:28.960 --> 00:05:31.520
+the most common that people
+heard about the inventory
+
+112
+00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:34.960
+and they eventually came up
+with the question: how can we
+
+113
+00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:37.480
+get our intangible cultural
+heritage on
+
+114
+00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:41.200
+this list, as they see it on
+the inventory.
+
+115
+00:05:41.400 --> 00:05:43.720
+So that was usually the most
+common question and
+
+116
+00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:46.360
+how they reached us.
+
+117
+00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:48.880
+Sometimes it was just us
+
+118
+00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:53.000
+or other professional
+organisations,
+
+119
+00:05:53.200 --> 00:05:56.000
+who contacted people and on the
+other hand, we also organised
+some
+
+120
+00:05:56.200 --> 00:05:58.720
+workshops and stuff like that
+; promotional
+
+121
+00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.200
+actions to promote the site
+and the database.
+
+122
+00:06:02.400 --> 00:06:05.360
+So that once people decide yes
+
+123
+00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.000
+we want to add our intangible
+
+124
+00:06:08.200 --> 00:06:10.280
+cultural heritage, they could
+ask for that.
+
+125
+00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:13.640
+That was how the process was in
+
+126
+00:06:13.840 --> 00:06:16.000
+the first database.
+
+127
+00:06:16.200 --> 00:06:19.480
+There it was that they could
+ask for a login, a
+
+128
+00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:21.920
+personal one, I would provide
+it to them.
+
+129
+00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:24.760
+Then they get access to the
+actual database.
+
+130
+00:06:24.960 --> 00:06:27.080
+They have a manual.
+
+131
+00:06:27.280 --> 00:06:29.800
+On how to work with a database
+with
+
+132
+00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.200
+explanations at the different
+fields.
+
+133
+00:06:32.400 --> 00:06:34.960
+What is what is really asked
+here
+
+134
+00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:37.440
+and then they could just go
+ahead.
+
+135
+00:06:37.640 --> 00:06:40.360
+But what we also did and what
+we strongly advised
+
+136
+00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.240
+was to have a conversation
+with one of our colleague
+
+137
+00:06:43.440 --> 00:06:45.760
+organizations that
+
+138
+00:06:45.960 --> 00:06:47.720
+was linked to their intangible
+culture.
+
+139
+00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:53.240
+To make it more clear, let's
+say, someone
+
+140
+00:06:53.440 --> 00:06:55.840
+who would want to add Carnival
+or something
+
+141
+00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.440
+like that, then we would guide
+them through an organization
+
+142
+00:06:59.640 --> 00:07:02.080
+who worked on social traditions
+
+143
+00:07:02.280 --> 00:07:04.600
+and that organization would
+have a conversation with
+
+144
+00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.800
+them on what is intangible
+heritage.
+
+145
+00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:09.320
+What is a policy on
+intangible heritage, so that
+they would
+
+146
+00:07:09.520 --> 00:07:11.920
+fully grasp the idea of what
+intangible
+
+147
+00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.680
+heritage really is and what it
+meant
+
+148
+00:07:14.880 --> 00:07:19.080
+and where the convention
+stands for
+where the policy stands for,
+
+149
+00:07:19.280 --> 00:07:21.760
+what it meant for them in
+practice and that it's really
+all
+
+150
+00:07:21.960 --> 00:07:24.520
+about working together and
+providing a future
+
+151
+00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.560
+for your intangible cultural
+heritage and keep it
+
+152
+00:07:27.760 --> 00:07:28.960
+active and alive.
+
+153
+00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:31.800
+And it's not about the history
+
+154
+00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:34.360
+of heritage but it's more
+about the
+
+155
+00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:36.880
+future. And once they
+
+156
+00:07:37.080 --> 00:07:40.080
+got that idea, then this
+organization
+
+157
+00:07:40.280 --> 00:07:42.960
+also guided them not wrote
+
+158
+00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:46.120
+the text, but they guided them
+into the process of
+
+159
+00:07:46.320 --> 00:07:48.640
+"Okay how are you now gonna
+describe it? How
+
+160
+00:07:48.840 --> 00:07:51.800
+would other people describe it
+? Who is involved
+
+161
+00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:54.400
+? What actions do you take to
+create
+
+162
+00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:57.720
+a future for your intangible
+cultural heritage?".
+
+163
+00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.040
+Actually that was a large
+process most of the times.
+
+164
+00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.760
+Some people just described
+their heritage
+
+165
+00:08:03.960 --> 00:08:07.480
+and described their community,
+
+166
+00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:10.720
+but it was also necessary
+
+167
+00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:16.920
+, otherwise you
+couldn't be visible
+
+168
+00:08:17.340 --> 00:08:18.640
+in the front of the database, on the website.
+
+169
+00:08:18.840 --> 00:08:21.200
+So most of the people really
+did this full process.
+
+170
+00:08:21.400 --> 00:08:24.400
+Not everyone. In
+
+171
+00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.920
+the end it mostly led to
+
+172
+00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.680
+filing requests for also
+
+173
+00:08:31.880 --> 00:08:35.440
+being mentioned on the
+inventory of intangible
+culture.
+
+174
+00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:38.520
+Because of this whole process
+that they had to
+
+175
+00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:41.040
+undertake that
+
+176
+00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.240
+was usually the outcome.
+
+177
+00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.040
+So this was not my role.
+
+178
+00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:48.720
+My role was more like OK get
+
+179
+00:08:48.920 --> 00:08:51.400
+people involved and explain
+
+180
+00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:53.960
+what the process is about and
+refer them to other
+
+181
+00:08:54.160 --> 00:08:56.840
+organizations who then
+
+182
+00:08:57.040 --> 00:08:58.960
+did this whole process
+with the people
+
+183
+00:08:59.160 --> 00:09:01.960
+and then once they had written
+the texts and have
+
+184
+00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:04.480
+come to a consensus about the
+texts that
+
+185
+00:09:04.680 --> 00:09:07.440
+they wrote, then they got back
+to the
+
+186
+00:09:07.640 --> 00:09:11.960
+database and started really
+filing in the content.
+
+187
+00:09:12.160 --> 00:09:15.240
+And then I would just make some
+little
+
+188
+00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.640
+editing stuff or
+
+189
+00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.200
+say "Oh maybe it's better to
+use that picture", but
+
+190
+00:09:22.400 --> 00:09:26.560
+my involvement was nothing
+more than that anymore at that
+time.
+
+191
+00:09:26.760 --> 00:09:29.280
+I'm also wondering about the
+part where
+
+192
+00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:33.280
+the different
+parties that were involved had
+to reach a consensus.
+
+193
+00:09:33.280 --> 00:09:33.840
+Yeah.
+
+194
+00:09:34.040 --> 00:09:36.560
+Are there any traces
+
+195
+00:09:36.760 --> 00:09:40.040
+in the inventory about the
+process -
+
+196
+00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:42.200
+of how they reached a consensus
+?
+Mhm. Or
+
+197
+00:09:42.400 --> 00:09:44.560
+of the moments where they
+didn't reach a
+consensus, for example.
+
+198
+00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:48.680
+Not
+
+199
+00:09:48.880 --> 00:09:51.640
+in the database itself,
+because it was
+
+200
+00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:53.680
+a process between people.
+
+201
+00:09:53.880 --> 00:09:56.960
+It wasn't a digital process at
+that time.
+
+202
+00:09:57.160 --> 00:10:00.560
+So, the texts that you see
+
+203
+00:10:00.760 --> 00:10:03.880
+on the website that are texts
+that
+
+204
+00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:06.520
+they reached a consensus
+about,
+
+205
+00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:09.160
+that's the case certainly now
+at this
+
+206
+00:10:09.160 --> 00:10:10.320
+point with a new database.
+
+207
+00:10:10.520 --> 00:10:13.080
+If someone isn't in consensus
+with how
+
+208
+00:10:13.280 --> 00:10:15.720
+it is mentioned, they are free
+and they can upload
+
+209
+00:10:15.920 --> 00:10:18.960
+another version and it stands
+next to each other.
+
+210
+00:10:19.160 --> 00:10:20.720
+That wasn't the case in the
+previous.
+
+211
+00:10:20.920 --> 00:10:23.880
+But now the website is open to
+that.
+
+212
+00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:27.040
+Has anyone actually made use of
+this feature
+
+213
+00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:29.160
+, at least until April 2019?
+
+214
+00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:30.680
+Yes.
+
+215
+00:10:30.880 --> 00:10:35.000
+So far I don't think so.
+
+216
+00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:37.720
+The professionals really played
+
+217
+00:10:37.920 --> 00:10:40.560
+the role of mediator the
+
+218
+00:10:40.760 --> 00:10:42.840
+past 6-7 years.
+
+219
+00:10:43.040 --> 00:10:45.640
+That was the idea also
+
+220
+00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:49.560
+of the policy to bring people
+
+221
+00:10:49.760 --> 00:10:52.600
+together on intangible
+cultural heritage
+
+222
+00:10:52.800 --> 00:10:54.960
+and it all came back from the
+idea they can learn from each
+
+223
+00:10:55.160 --> 00:10:57.640
+other and it strengthens the
+
+224
+00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.440
+intangible cultural heritage
+if people work together
+
+225
+00:11:00.640 --> 00:11:03.200
+and if they share their
+experience and I think for a
+big part
+
+226
+00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:05.040
+that's that's really true.
+
+227
+00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.680
+But you still have different
+voices
+
+228
+00:11:07.880 --> 00:11:10.240
+and different meanings and
+when 0 I can
+
+229
+00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:12.400
+understand your question when
+it comes to texts.
+
+230
+00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:15.200
+People can have another vision
+on
+
+231
+00:11:15.400 --> 00:11:18.680
+how something is described or
+if
+
+232
+00:11:18.880 --> 00:11:21.480
+they want to feel connected to
+it, but
+
+233
+00:11:21.680 --> 00:11:25.240
+in the past they got to the
+point of a consensus.
+
+234
+00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:27.920
+One of the examples that you
+
+235
+00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:30.520
+wrote in your email was about
+the Giants,
+
+236
+00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.040
+but that - actually I am
+actually not the
+
+237
+00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:36.520
+person who who can speak
+widely about it,
+
+238
+00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.080
+because it wasn't one of our
+projects - and the
+organization
+
+239
+00:11:39.280 --> 00:11:42.280
+who has done that this
+was LECA, now they're part of
+Histories.
+
+240
+00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.080
+They were one of the first and
+actually they had a process
+
+241
+00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:47.840
+for 7 or 8, 9 years because
+
+242
+00:11:48.040 --> 00:11:50.920
+in France you have a lot of
+giants and
+
+243
+00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:52.320
+a lot of small communities
+
+244
+00:11:52.520 --> 00:11:55.800
+but actually they're all part
+of a bigger community
+
+245
+00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.440
+of people who feel
+
+246
+00:11:58.640 --> 00:12:00.960
+strongly about the Giants and
+keep them alive and
+
+247
+00:12:01.160 --> 00:12:04.760
+then they said "well we have
+to get those people together".
+
+248
+00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:07.360
+And step by step, year by
+year,
+
+249
+00:12:07.560 --> 00:12:10.040
+they started to work with
+these people and
+
+250
+00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.040
+attract more and more people.
+
+251
+00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.640
+And support them and actually
+in
+
+252
+00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:17.440
+the end they created a lot of
+cells
+
+253
+00:12:17.640 --> 00:12:21.520
+in different regions
+with people
+
+254
+00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:25.000
+who were more or less
+involved.
+
+255
+00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.560
+They organized workshops in
+different regions and so
+
+256
+00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:30.480
+a total movement actually
+arose
+
+257
+00:12:30.680 --> 00:12:33.000
+and it came to an association
+for the
+
+258
+00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:36.120
+whole of Flanders on this
+Giant
+
+259
+00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:37.440
+culture actually.
+
+260
+00:12:37.640 --> 00:12:40.080
+And then they applied for a
+place on
+
+261
+00:12:40.280 --> 00:12:42.800
+the inventory as a whole,
+
+262
+00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:45.480
+but I have to say before
+
+263
+00:12:45.680 --> 00:12:48.840
+that smaller communities
+already applied
+
+264
+00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:50.200
+for an individual
+
+265
+00:12:50.400 --> 00:12:53.080
+culture in the city, but
+
+266
+00:12:53.280 --> 00:12:56.040
+it felt really strong that now
+they can speak of
+
+267
+00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:58.000
+a Giant culture in Flanders.
+
+268
+00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:02.160
+Then they tried to
+
+269
+00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.680
+put the differences
+
+270
+00:13:04.880 --> 00:13:07.600
+into the text on this culture
+but of course
+
+271
+00:13:07.800 --> 00:13:10.200
+you have smaller aspects of
+
+272
+00:13:10.400 --> 00:13:12.720
+culture in a smaller region
+that are different.
+
+273
+00:13:12.920 --> 00:13:16.440
+But yes you can find some main
+
+274
+00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:20.320
+lines and teams that
+
+275
+00:13:20.520 --> 00:13:21.720
+apply to them all.
+
+276
+00:13:21.920 --> 00:13:24.320
+They did a good job, but
+
+277
+00:13:24.520 --> 00:13:27.160
+people are now certainly also
+
+278
+00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:29.840
+able to fill in the form
+
+279
+00:13:30.040 --> 00:13:31.720
+just on their own culture.
+
+280
+00:13:31.920 --> 00:13:34.960
+That's what I'm trying to say
+so we took
+
+281
+00:13:35.160 --> 00:13:37.480
+that idea of "there has to be
+a consensus and
+
+282
+00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:40.320
+everyone has to work together
+", we
+
+283
+00:13:40.520 --> 00:13:43.920
+took that down a notch in
+
+284
+00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:46.840
+the second database now.
+
+285
+00:13:47.040 --> 00:13:49.560
+So now it's more everyone, even
+a small community
+
+286
+00:13:49.760 --> 00:13:52.120
+, even a person can fill in a
+form
+
+287
+00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:55.040
+so that the giant of a small
+community
+
+288
+00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:56.760
+is also visible on the
+website.
+
+289
+00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:01.160
+So the two ways
+
+290
+00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.640
+lie ahead now next to each other in
+the new database.
+Yeah.
+
+291
+00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:08.480
+How was this transition made
+? Was the
+
+292
+00:14:08.680 --> 00:14:11.240
+focus on a multiplicity
+
+293
+00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.760
+of views coming from
+
+294
+00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:17.360
+the organization Werk
+plaats Immaterieel Eerfgoed or
+
+295
+00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:19.160
+was it coming from the
+Flemish government?
+
+296
+00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.000
+I think it was
+
+297
+00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:23.680
+from both ways.
+
+298
+00:14:23.880 --> 00:14:27.200
+And there is also another organ
+
+299
+00:14:27.400 --> 00:14:29.920
+in this whole process and
+that's a commission
+
+300
+00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:32.640
+of experts and
+
+301
+00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:35.680
+they advise the minister on
+
+302
+00:14:35.880 --> 00:14:38.320
+which elements should be
+
+303
+00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:40.480
+on the inventory.
+
+304
+00:14:40.680 --> 00:14:43.680
+So they really went over all
+these appliances
+
+305
+00:14:43.880 --> 00:14:46.840
+and they also had made some
+
+306
+00:14:47.040 --> 00:14:49.720
+evaluations on the topic of
+the
+
+307
+00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:52.360
+past years and made some
+suggestions.
+
+308
+00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:55.240
+So when the years went by
+
+309
+00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:58.440
+faces headed into the same
+direction
+
+310
+00:14:58.640 --> 00:15:01.040
+because we all noticed that
+"OK.
+
+311
+00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:05.120
+This way of working demands a
+lot of the
+people, ir demands a lot of the
+
+312
+00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.360
+professionals who are guiding
+them.
+
+313
+00:15:07.560 --> 00:15:10.960
+Certainly
+
+314
+00:15:11.160 --> 00:15:13.400
+it has has pros, many.
+
+315
+00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.120
+We have done terrific work on
+that,
+
+316
+00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.840
+but in terms of
+
+317
+00:15:19.040 --> 00:15:21.480
+displaying on a website on
+
+318
+00:15:21.680 --> 00:15:24.400
+inventorying ICH in Flanders
+and displaying
+
+319
+00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.560
+the diversity of ICH in
+Flanders...
+
+320
+00:15:28.760 --> 00:15:31.160
+These two processes
+
+321
+00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:34.720
+can come together. They're
+just
+
+322
+00:15:34.920 --> 00:15:38.080
+counterproductive actually,
+because it
+
+323
+00:15:38.280 --> 00:15:41.160
+took such a long time to get
+to a text,
+
+324
+00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:43.680
+so they can display it and
+that's not the
+
+325
+00:15:43.880 --> 00:15:46.600
+match we're trying to make
+
+326
+00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:49.280
+an inventory of ICHin Flanders
+that's
+
+327
+00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.400
+really diverse also.
+
+328
+00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.080
+Was this one of the main
+reasons to move to a new
+database?
+
+329
+00:15:55.280 --> 00:15:57.160
+Yes it was. Because
+
+330
+00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:59.680
+the old database and the
+content that
+
+331
+00:15:59.880 --> 00:16:02.240
+was in the database didn't
+show the
+
+332
+00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.320
+diversity of ICH in Flanders
+and had problems with that.
+
+333
+00:16:06.520 --> 00:16:08.840
+So we made an analysis of what
+is going on
+
+334
+00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:11.920
+here and there were a lot of
+technical issues,
+
+335
+00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:14.800
+barriers that slow down that
+process
+
+336
+00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.320
+next to the process on how we
+work with
+
+337
+00:16:17.520 --> 00:16:21.840
+the tradition bearers and
+the policy and what they
+
+338
+00:16:22.040 --> 00:16:24.760
+demanded of
+
+339
+00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.400
+work from these volunteers and
+that took a long
+
+340
+00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.920
+time for them to develop
+
+341
+00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:36.120
+and this is almost
+counterproductive to the
+inventorying ICH in Flanders.
+
+342
+00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:39.400
+And then you create an image of
+ICH in Flanders
+
+343
+00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:44.000
+only with the ICH
+
+344
+00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:48.160
+of people who already know the
+way to the professional
+organizations.
+
+345
+00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.920
+And then again when you look at
+look at it
+
+346
+00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:53.800
+from the perspective of the
+website only typical
+
+347
+00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:55.360
+ICH is presented there.
+
+348
+00:16:55.560 --> 00:16:57.960
+So it's a conflict. A lot of
+steps
+
+349
+00:16:58.160 --> 00:17:00.880
+had to be taken and you had
+a policy,
+
+350
+00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:03.760
+you had the process on how to
+
+351
+00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.360
+apply for the inventory, that
+are
+
+352
+00:17:06.560 --> 00:17:08.600
+all barriers,
+
+353
+00:17:08.800 --> 00:17:11.880
+but you also had the digital
+
+354
+00:17:12.080 --> 00:17:14.640
+barriers that were definitely
+
+355
+00:17:14.840 --> 00:17:17.880
+a big part of it because it
+was too difficult to work
+with.
+
+356
+00:17:18.080 --> 00:17:20.880
+So
+
+357
+00:17:21.080 --> 00:17:23.120
+in one year we worked on the
+three.
+
+358
+00:17:23.320 --> 00:17:25.720
+Did you find that being a
+moderator
+
+359
+00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.080
+for the NGO the
+Werkplaats Immaterieel Erfgoed
+
+360
+00:17:29.280 --> 00:17:31.720
+was different from being a
+moderator for elements
+
+361
+00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:36.040
+that went on the Flemish
+inventory?
+
+362
+00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.920
+It's true that my role was
+different than
+
+363
+00:17:39.120 --> 00:17:42.200
+other colleagues of mine in
+the NGO.
+
+364
+00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.120
+And that sometimes it did
+
+365
+00:17:45.320 --> 00:17:48.480
+in our day to day work it
+
+366
+00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.480
+did came up that I was more
+linked to the government.
+
+367
+00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:53.920
+Or that's how I felt it.
+
+368
+00:17:54.120 --> 00:17:56.640
+Sometimes I have to say "but no
+Ellen, no, that's not true".
+
+369
+00:17:56.840 --> 00:17:59.160
+But I had the feeling that I
+was moderating a
+
+370
+00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:01.800
+tool of them and
+
+371
+00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:06.120
+that is something that I was
+always conscious about.
+
+372
+00:18:06.320 --> 00:18:08.360
+It's a very direct line.
+
+373
+00:18:08.560 --> 00:18:11.840
+In the work we have done as an
+organization
+
+374
+00:18:12.040 --> 00:18:15.480
+, we could more develop our own
+
+375
+00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:20.160
+lines and vision on the
+website.
+We could.
+
+376
+00:18:20.360 --> 00:18:23.160
+But it's more for working and
+
+377
+00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:25.960
+finding and way in. Okay how
+far
+
+378
+00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.360
+can we go as an
+organization whose moderating
+this tool?
+
+379
+00:18:29.560 --> 00:18:32.200
+And when do we have to
+
+380
+00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:34.760
+ask feedback or approval
+
+381
+00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:39.080
+from the government if we want
+to do it like this or like
+that.
+
+382
+00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:41.520
+And then I was a person who was
+responsible for that.
+
+383
+00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:44.600
+So they felt freer
+in their work
+
+384
+00:18:44.800 --> 00:18:48.960
+than I could ever be. Me
+
+385
+00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:50.840
+personally and as a moderator.
+
+386
+00:18:51.040 --> 00:18:53.480
+So yeah it was reflected in my
+
+387
+00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.200
+my work and that's why I was
+really happy
+
+388
+00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.800
+that at the end I could guide
+
+389
+00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.960
+this project as a project
+management to do
+
+390
+00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.000
+the follow up tool in 2018
+
+391
+00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:08.840
+because at that time we could
+as an organization
+
+392
+00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:11.480
+and me also my
+
+393
+00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.320
+personal expertise in
+moderating this website, it
+
+394
+00:19:14.520 --> 00:19:16.400
+all could come together.
+
+395
+00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:20.000
+And at that time we also built
+up an expertise
+
+396
+00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:23.720
+or voice as an organization
+and
+
+397
+00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.120
+we're stronger than in 2012.
+
+398
+00:19:26.320 --> 00:19:28.800
+It was nice to work in
+
+399
+00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:31.400
+this way with the government
+so that we could
+
+400
+00:19:31.600 --> 00:19:35.000
+develop a tool that everybody
+was happy about.
+
+401
+00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:36.200
+Yes this is the way forward.
+
+402
+00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:38.760
+This is what we need to do to
+
+403
+00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.000
+turn this around.
+
+404
+00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:45.240
+So at the end we were more... I
+was more..
+.
+
+405
+00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:46.160
+Yeah I could say..
+
+406
+00:19:46.360 --> 00:19:48.200
+.
+
+407
+00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.000
+More colleagues also with the
+government not in a way
+
+408
+00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.920
+like what my colleagues on the
+Werkplaats,
+
+409
+00:19:54.120 --> 00:19:56.520
+but we could speak
+
+410
+00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:59.200
+more freely to each other and
+everyone has
+
+411
+00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.360
+his position and his expertise
+and is valued for that.
+
+412
+00:20:02.560 --> 00:20:06.040
+So that was another way of
+working than 6, 7 years before
+that.
+
+413
+00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:11.240
+How
+
+414
+00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.120
+do you negotiate the
+differences between
+
+415
+00:20:15.320 --> 00:20:18.120
+the official
+Flemish inventory and
+
+416
+00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:22.800
+the organization's inventory.
+
+417
+00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:29.000
+Yeah.
+
+418
+00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:32.600
+That's one of the changes that
+was made in
+
+419
+00:20:32.800 --> 00:20:36.920
+developing the sector, because
+
+420
+00:20:37.120 --> 00:20:39.480
+like I said before in the
+first tool the restrictions
+
+421
+00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:41.120
+were rather high.
+
+422
+00:20:41.320 --> 00:20:44.320
+So there had to be a
+description.
+
+423
+00:20:44.520 --> 00:20:47.280
+Of the Intangible Cultural
+Heritage and then it's
+
+424
+00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:51.960
+matched with a definition of
+intangible cultural heritage.
+
+425
+00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.320
+The parameters that are that
+you can find in the
+definition.
+
+426
+00:20:56.520 --> 00:20:59.000
+One important one for example
+
+427
+00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:03.120
+is: is it still alive
+
+428
+00:21:03.320 --> 00:21:06.000
+and active? Are
+
+429
+00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.840
+people still doing it? Is
+
+430
+00:21:09.040 --> 00:21:11.480
+there a future for it? So
+that's one aspect.
+
+431
+00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.040
+When people enter their
+information that was one of
+the things
+
+432
+00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:16.880
+that I would really look into
+
+433
+00:21:17.080 --> 00:21:19.400
+and ask extra questions
+whether
+
+434
+00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:22.560
+or not it was for the
+inventory or not that was
+
+435
+00:21:22.760 --> 00:21:25.680
+for example a very big issue.
+
+436
+00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:28.680
+But also as certainly on the
+first
+
+437
+00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:32.160
+database people had to
+describe their community.
+
+438
+00:21:32.360 --> 00:21:35.280
+And
+
+439
+00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:37.880
+the government was really
+strict about it: from they
+have to
+
+440
+00:21:38.080 --> 00:21:41.440
+describe their community
+, otherwise they cannot be
+visible in the front.
+
+441
+00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:44.160
+So they can be in the back-end,
+they can work on their
+
+442
+00:21:44.360 --> 00:21:47.000
+content, but it can only be
+
+443
+00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.680
+made visible once all this
+information is included.
+
+444
+00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.640
+One extra was that they had to
+show
+
+445
+00:21:54.840 --> 00:21:57.200
+that they already had made
+some
+
+446
+00:21:57.400 --> 00:21:59.280
+safeguarding measures.
+
+447
+00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.560
+So that was three very big
+descriptions, we think.
+
+448
+00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:06.120
+Because what also comes up is
+that you have
+
+449
+00:22:06.320 --> 00:22:08.240
+to have prior and informed
+consent.
+
+450
+00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:10.240
+I don't know if you're familiar
+with that.
+
+451
+00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:14.960
+That's something that is strict
+in the convention.
+
+452
+00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:17.480
+You have to have prior and
+informed consent to call
+
+453
+00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.080
+something intangible cultural
+heritage.
+
+454
+00:22:20.280 --> 00:22:22.680
+So the government felt really
+strongly
+
+455
+00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:25.720
+about and that was a really
+strong restriction
+
+456
+00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.200
+for me to moderate
+this content
+
+457
+00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.240
+and that would lead up to
+asking extra
+
+458
+00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:34.120
+questions to the people.
+
+459
+00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:36.720
+So for 6, 7 years, me
+
+460
+00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:39.520
+as a moderator,
+
+461
+00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.720
+there was almost nothing that
+I could moderate
+
+462
+00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:45.240
+and make visible in the front
+
+463
+00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:46.560
+other than the inventory
+
+464
+00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:50.240
+for cultural heritage because
+the standards are so high.
+
+465
+00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:52.320
+So there was almost no
+difference.
+
+466
+00:22:52.520 --> 00:22:54.960
+And that's something that we
+made notable to
+
+467
+00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:59.400
+the government and now the
+restrictions are much lesser.
+
+468
+00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:03.160
+So we pulled it apart.
+
+469
+00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:05.880
+So now people who want to make
+their intangible
+
+470
+00:23:06.080 --> 00:23:07.880
+cultural heritage visible they
+can.
+
+471
+00:23:08.080 --> 00:23:09.480
+They only have a form.
+
+472
+00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.720
+And five six questions that
+they had to fill in.
+
+473
+00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:15.360
+And then they click a bottom
+where they
+
+474
+00:23:15.560 --> 00:23:18.000
+say yes I have read the
+definition
+
+475
+00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:20.720
+of intangible cultural
+heritage and this is
+intangible
+
+476
+00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.000
+cultural heritage to me.
+
+477
+00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.160
+And that's
+
+478
+00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:29.120
+also all that the convention
+asks for.
+
+479
+00:23:29.320 --> 00:23:31.640
+But the government interpreted
+the
+
+480
+00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:36.160
+convention at a very high
+level.
+
+481
+00:23:36.360 --> 00:23:37.600
+Difficult level.
+
+482
+00:23:37.800 --> 00:23:40.480
+So we tried to narrow it down
+
+483
+00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:46.680
+and split it out.
+
+484
+00:23:47.080 --> 00:23:49.520
+The moderator now, he can just
+look
+
+485
+00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:52.120
+into the texts that come up on
+
+486
+00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:54.720
+this little forum and
+
+487
+00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.080
+if people are interested in
+
+488
+00:23:58.280 --> 00:24:00.720
+applying for the inventory
+they can
+
+489
+00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:03.520
+start to fill in another form
+with
+
+490
+00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.680
+more questions but also easier
+questions
+
+491
+00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:09.240
+than ever before to fill in a
+
+492
+00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.840
+form to apply for the
+inventory and they
+
+493
+00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:14.520
+can also
+
+494
+00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.480
+get in contact with other
+organizations if they wanted.
+
+495
+00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:20.720
+But also that is not necessary
+anymore. And
+
+496
+00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:20.600
+previous times it was
+necessary.
+
+497
+00:24:20.800 --> 00:24:24.720
+When
+
+498
+00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:27.440
+you made the transition from
+the previous database to the
+new
+
+499
+00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:28.080
+database,
+what happened with these elements?
+
+500
+00:24:28.280 --> 00:24:30.680
+Very important in this
+
+501
+00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.680
+process was it was not only
+a new database
+
+502
+00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.440
+, but it was also a new way of
+reporting.
+
+503
+00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:40.120
+I don't know if you are
+familiar with that concept
+? That every
+
+504
+00:24:40.320 --> 00:24:43.000
+year elements who are on the
+inventory
+
+505
+00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:46.640
+, they had to make a report on
+how they
+
+506
+00:24:46.840 --> 00:24:50.120
+develop safeguarding measures
+that year and how it has
+evolved.
+
+507
+00:24:50.320 --> 00:24:52.960
+And also they were asked to
+
+508
+00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.800
+look into the description of
+the heritage
+
+509
+00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.680
+and make changes if something
+
+510
+00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.040
+changed, or has come up, or
+add something or.
+
+511
+00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.000
+But not many have done that
+in the past years.
+
+512
+00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.280
+So we thought well there's a
+new database now.
+
+513
+00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:15.120
+But it's also a different way
+of working.
+
+514
+00:25:15.320 --> 00:25:17.840
+So we kept them informed.
+
+515
+00:25:18.040 --> 00:25:19.880
+We thought that was very
+important.
+
+516
+00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:22.560
+On the new process, but also
+what we
+
+517
+00:25:22.760 --> 00:25:25.080
+were aiming for with this new
+website and
+
+518
+00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:28.080
+this new database and actually
+it was the government
+
+519
+00:25:28.280 --> 00:25:29.640
+who led that process.
+
+520
+00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:32.160
+I made suggestions on how to do
+that, but they were in
+
+521
+00:25:32.360 --> 00:25:34.240
+contact with the communities.
+
+522
+00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.080
+So we were restricted
+
+523
+00:25:37.280 --> 00:25:40.520
+the number of
+characters that a text could
+have
+
+524
+00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:43.600
+and a lot of texts were for
+example I'm
+
+525
+00:25:43.800 --> 00:25:47.480
+giving you a very straight
+clear example.
+
+526
+00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:51.080
+The texts were very long. So we
+narrowed it down
+
+527
+00:25:51.280 --> 00:25:53.920
+and we did edit
+
+528
+00:25:54.120 --> 00:25:57.360
+the texts to make it more web
+friendly
+
+529
+00:25:57.560 --> 00:25:59.640
+and then we gave it back to
+the communities,
+
+530
+00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:02.160
+we informed that we were going
+to do that and then we gave it
+back to the
+
+531
+00:26:02.360 --> 00:26:04.680
+communities and we didn't
+
+532
+00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:08.600
+enter any new texts before we
+got their consent.
+
+533
+00:26:08.800 --> 00:26:11.360
+Looking at the experts from
+their new database
+
+534
+00:26:11.560 --> 00:26:14.440
+one column that stands out is
+that of weight,
+
+535
+00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.040
+referring of course to the
+order in which the elements
+are
+
+536
+00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:18.960
+displayed on the website.
+
+537
+00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.440
+And most of the elements seem
+to have a different weight
+from another.
+
+538
+00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.920
+Could you mention how that
+selection is made?
+
+539
+00:26:26.120 --> 00:26:28.560
+The grand idea about the new
+website was all
+
+540
+00:26:28.760 --> 00:26:31.640
+diversity, diversity,
+diversity. And we
+
+541
+00:26:31.840 --> 00:26:35.120
+wanted to have an impact on
+the image of intangible
+cultural
+
+542
+00:26:35.320 --> 00:26:38.160
+heritage and what it all can be
+and is in Flanders
+
+543
+00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:41.160
+and not only just typical
+Carnival
+
+544
+00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:44.120
+and Processions
+
+545
+00:26:44.320 --> 00:26:46.520
+but that is much more than
+that.
+
+546
+00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:49.680
+So we wanted to have also
+
+547
+00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:52.240
+a sort of algorithm, because
+
+548
+00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:54.840
+there's only a few elements
+that can be shown
+
+549
+00:26:55.040 --> 00:26:57.720
+on the front page and also
+
+550
+00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.960
+when you enter the part of the
+elements.
+
+551
+00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:03.920
+Also there, there is every day
+
+552
+00:27:04.120 --> 00:27:07.160
+, every element has a different
+place
+
+553
+00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:08.440
+in how it's presented.
+
+554
+00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:11.160
+It can be on the first page
+it can be the second.
+
+555
+00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:16.200
+We wanted it also to change to
+have algorithms in the
+database.
+
+556
+00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:18.800
+And that's all because we
+wanted to show
+
+557
+00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:21.960
+this diversity of elements,
+
+558
+00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:24.720
+but we would have done it in a
+full
+
+559
+00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:26.800
+automatic way.
+
+560
+00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:31.040
+But the budget wasn't
+sufficient enough.
+
+561
+00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:33.560
+So the developers came back to
+us
+
+562
+00:27:33.760 --> 00:27:37.080
+and said "no we can't do it
+that way but we have another
+idea.
+
+563
+00:27:37.080 --> 00:27:37.840
+We switch it.
+
+564
+00:27:38.040 --> 00:27:40.360
+And with this bar you can give
+
+565
+00:27:40.560 --> 00:27:43.160
+it a percentage and then it
+has a lower or higher
+
+566
+00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:46.000
+chance to come on the front
+page
+
+567
+00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:48.280
+or to come on the first or the
+second or the third".
+
+568
+00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.760
+And when we speak of diversity
+it's on different
+
+569
+00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:54.600
+levels: it's the level of the
+different domains
+
+570
+00:27:54.800 --> 00:27:56.560
+of cultural heritage.
+
+571
+00:27:56.760 --> 00:27:59.400
+It's whether it's heritage
+
+572
+00:27:59.600 --> 00:28:02.800
+that takes place in cities or
+
+573
+00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:06.560
+in the mainland or that's
+
+574
+00:28:06.760 --> 00:28:09.720
+mainly done by elders or by
+youngsters.
+
+575
+00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:12.240
+So these differences, we
+
+576
+00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:14.400
+wanted to reflect it all.
+
+577
+00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:17.960
+And with that in our back of
+our head we would manually
+
+578
+00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:20.520
+give it a different percentage
+every month,
+
+579
+00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:22.000
+every week.
+
diff --git a/parade.js b/parade.js
index fb12795..ba4505f 100644
--- a/parade.js
+++ b/parade.js
@@ -20,7 +20,7 @@ performance.now = (function() {
performance.mozNow ||
performance.msNow ||
performance.oNow ||
- performance.webkitNow ||
+ performance.webkitNow ||
Date.now /*none found - fallback to browser default */
})();
@@ -76,7 +76,7 @@ class Parade {
// console.log('pos', , pos);
let img = new ParadeImage(images[i], pos);
this.images.push(img);
-
+
// for testing:
// if(this.images.length > 5)
// break;
@@ -85,7 +85,7 @@ class Parade {
this.setupSubtitles();
this.setupSorter();
this.restoreTime();
-
+
// Watch for browser/canvas resize events
window.addEventListener("resize", function () {
this.engine.resize();
@@ -124,7 +124,7 @@ class Parade {
});
}
for(let track of this.audioEl.textTracks){
- // by default only one (or none) is set to showing.
+ // by default only one (or none) is set to showing.
// for some reason setting it on trackEl doesn't work, while this does the trick.
track.mode = 'showing';
}
@@ -140,7 +140,7 @@ class Parade {
updateTimestring() {
let now = this.audioEl.currentTime;
let duration = this.audioEl.duration;
-
+
let timestring = String(Math.floor(now/60)).padStart(2, '0') + ":"
+ String(Math.floor(now)%60).padStart(2, '0')
+ " / " + String(Math.floor(duration/60)).padStart(2, '0') + ":"
@@ -188,8 +188,8 @@ class Parade {
for (let index = 0; index < this.images.length; index++) {
this.imagesToSort[index] = index;
}
- }
-
+ }
+
let nextButton = document.getElementById('nextButton');
nextButton.addEventListener('click', this.nextSorterImage.bind(this));
@@ -233,10 +233,10 @@ class Parade {
document.body.classList.remove('finished');
this.audioEl.controls = false;
}
-
+
// pick random image
this.imageIdToSort = this.imagesToSort[Math.floor(Math.random()*this.imagesToSort.length)];
- this.imageToSort = this.images[this.imageIdToSort];
+ this.imageToSort = this.images[this.imageIdToSort];
let clone = this.sorterTemplate.content.cloneNode(true);
let imgEl = clone.querySelector(".img");
@@ -283,7 +283,7 @@ class Parade {
new_position, 0,
this.imagePositions.splice(old_position, 1)[0]
);
-
+
// update positions of image objects
for(let i in this.images) {
i = parseInt(i);
@@ -365,23 +365,23 @@ class Parade {
this.t += dt;
}
this.lastRenderTime = n; // also increment when paused;
-
+
// console.log(maxStepSize);
for(let i of this.images){
i.updateMeshPosition(this.t, dt, this.config);
-
+
}
}
createScene() {
// This creates a basic Babylon Scene object
this.scene = new BABYLON.Scene(this.engine);
-
- this.scene.clearColor = new BABYLON.Color3(.22,0.27,0.38); // color RGB
+
+ this.scene.clearColor = new BABYLON.Color3(98,44,246); // color RGB
// this.scene.clearColor = new BABYLON.Color4(0.6, 0.6, 0.,0); // transparent - RGBA
this.scene.fogMode = BABYLON.Scene.FOGMODE_EXP;
this.scene.fogColor = this.scene.clearColor;
- this.scene.fogDensity = 0.002;
+ this.scene.fogDensity = 0.000;
// let camera = new BABYLON.UniversalCamera("camera1", new BABYLON.Vector3( 0.0, 0.0, 120.86337575312979), this.scene);
// camera.rotation = new BABYLON.Vector3(0, Math.PI, 0);
@@ -396,8 +396,8 @@ class Parade {
// this.spectatorCamera.upperRadiusLimit = 20;
// This attaches the camera to the canvas
this.spectatorCamera.attachControl(this.canvasEl, true);
-
-
+
+
// CAM 2: follow/track the image when we're editing its weight.
// Parameters: name, position, scene
this.imgCamera = new BABYLON.ArcRotateCamera("FollowCam", 20, 20, 10, new BABYLON.Vector3(0, 0, 0), this.scene);
@@ -449,7 +449,7 @@ class ParadeImage {
}
/**
- *
+ *
* @param {int} new_position new position in parade
* @param {float} time_complete time at which it should have transitioned to this position
*/
@@ -476,11 +476,11 @@ class ParadeImage {
width: this.width/100,
sideOrientation: BABYLON.Mesh.DOUBLESIDE // texture should be visible from front and back
};
-
+
let imagePlane = BABYLON.MeshBuilder.CreatePlane("image", planeOptions, scene);
-
+
var imageMat = new BABYLON.StandardMaterial("m", scene);
-
+
imageMat.diffuseTexture = new BABYLON.Texture(self.getImageUrl(), scene);
imageMat.roughness = 1;
imageMat.emissiveColor = new BABYLON.Color3.White();
@@ -488,7 +488,7 @@ class ParadeImage {
imagePlane.parent = self.mesh;
}
img.src = this.getImageUrl();
-
+
// text https://www.babylonjs-playground.com/#TMHF80
// TODO: cleanup this mess of the dynamic texture:
@@ -510,19 +510,19 @@ class ParadeImage {
ctx.fillStyle = config['textColor'];
ctx.fillText(text, 0, 50, maxWidth);
dynamicTexture.update();
-
+
var mat = new BABYLON.StandardMaterial("mat", scene);
mat.diffuseTexture = dynamicTexture;
mat.opacityTexture = dynamicTexture; // smoother transparency: https://www.html5gamedevs.com/topic/19647-quality-of-dynamictexture-text-with-transparent-background/?do=findComment&comment=111383
mat.roughness = 1;
mat.emissiveColor = new BABYLON.Color3.White();
-
- var textPlane = BABYLON.MeshBuilder.CreatePlane("text", {width:planeWidth, height:planeHeight, sideOrientation: BABYLON.Mesh.DOUBLESIDE}, scene);
- textPlane.material = mat;
- textPlane.parent = this.mesh;
- textPlane.position.y = -4.3; // text sits below image
-
+ // var textPlane = BABYLON.MeshBuilder.CreatePlane("text", {width:planeWidth, height:planeHeight, sideOrientation: BABYLON.Mesh.DOUBLESIDE}, scene);
+ // textPlane.material = mat;
+ // textPlane.parent = this.mesh;
+ // textPlane.position.y = -4.3;
+
+
this.mesh.rotation.y = Math.PI; // rotate 180 deg. to avoid looking at backside from the start.
@@ -560,7 +560,7 @@ class ParadeImage {
p *= config.speedFactor/1000
p -= config.startOffset/config.speedFactor; // start offset ( milliseconds)
p -= config.distanceFactor * this.position / 1000;
-
+
// factors determine scale of animation
let target_x = Math.sin(2*p)*config.shapeWidth;
let target_z = Math.sin(p)*config.shapeHeight;