diversions/interview/interview-with-ellen_v3.mp3.vtt

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.360
For how long were you a
moderator?

2
00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:09.280
I started
moderating the database in 2012.

3
00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:13.240
I think it was launched in
September 2012, but we

4
00:00:13.440 --> 00:00:16.840
were involved in the project
maybe March-April.

5
00:00:17.040 --> 00:00:23.040
So, at the end of the
development, they contacted
us.

6
00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:27.320
'They' are the
government - the Flemish government - who

7
00:00:27.520 --> 00:00:31.520
built this database and
website.

8
00:00:31.720 --> 00:00:34.400
And they attracted us because
we had knowledge

9
00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.680
of working with participatory

10
00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:41.640
ways and methodologies.

11
00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:45.640
And I worked on it just until

12
00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:47.640
April 2019.

13
00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:49.640
When was the transition to the
new database?

14
00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:52.640
The transition happened in 2018

15
00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:58.840
from the beginning of the year
and it was launched in the
beginning of December.

16
00:01:03.080 --> 00:01:04.560
What role did the Flemish
government play in the development of the
database?

17
00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:04.240
The first and the second?
Yes.

18
00:01:04.440 --> 00:01:05.920
Yeah.  Well

19
00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:09.200
they are the owners of the
database

20
00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:13.360
and you can say it's a
reflection of their policy.

21
00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:16.000
So, their policy on intangible
cultural heritage

22
00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:19.040
is totally incorporated in
this tool.

23
00:01:19.240 --> 00:01:22.920
You can see it as a mirror of
their policies.

24
00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:25.560
There was a new policy since
the end

25
00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.080
of 2010, there was a new
vision on how

26
00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.400
to work with intangible
cultural heritage in
Flanders. And

27
00:01:31.600 --> 00:01:34.320
2012 was a year that they
started really to

28
00:01:34.520 --> 00:01:38.160
develop the policy and put it
into practice.

29
00:01:38.360 --> 00:01:41.280
And that professional
organizations

30
00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:44.840
in Flanders were

31
00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:47.600
beginning to understand what
intangible

32
00:01:47.800 --> 00:01:49.880
heritage is and what's it
about.

33
00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:52.400
So the government developed a
tool to

34
00:01:52.600 --> 00:01:55.040
sustain the work on intangible

35
00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:56.040
cultural heritage.

36
00:01:56.240 --> 00:02:00.000
For the volunteers - the

37
00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.760
tradition
bearers, the ICH intangible cultural heritage bearers - , but

38
00:02:04.960 --> 00:02:06.760
also for the professionals.

39
00:02:06.960 --> 00:02:09.360
Were you also involved in the
process of developing the

40
00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:11.960
database? How did you
collaborate on that?

41
00:02:12.160 --> 00:02:14.520
In the beginning it was mainly
the government itself

42
00:02:14.720 --> 00:02:15.840
who developed it.

43
00:02:16.040 --> 00:02:17.240
With FARO.

44
00:02:17.440 --> 00:02:19.680
They were mainly involved.

45
00:02:19.880 --> 00:02:22.320
I think also PACKED was
involved.

46
00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.760
But PACKED was involved later
on in the process, together

47
00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:27.680
with us because of

48
00:02:27.880 --> 00:02:30.200
that's an organization who has
expertise on

49
00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:35.520
digital heritage and we had
expertise on
participative methods.

50
00:02:35.720 --> 00:02:38.280
So that's why they attracted
us both, but

51
00:02:38.480 --> 00:02:40.000
much later in the process.

52
00:02:40.200 --> 00:02:43.120
So there was already
a cooperation building the
database.

53
00:02:43.320 --> 00:02:46.040
They already had decided what
they wanted, who

54
00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:47.600
was going to build it.

55
00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.920
How did you find the first
database?

56
00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:55.000
How did I find it?
Interesting...

57
00:02:55.200 --> 00:02:56.960
Challenging...

58
00:02:57.160 --> 00:02:59.200
I was the moderator of the
platform.

59
00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:01.760
Then you have already two terms
and what I'm

60
00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:04.920
saying now has a very broad
meaning.

61
00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:08.240
They said it was a platform on
the digital cultural heritage,

62
00:03:08.440 --> 00:03:10.320
but
with the word platform they
meant it's

63
00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:13.040
not only a digital tool, but

64
00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.600
it's also a network of

65
00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:18.240
professionals who are working
on intangible

66
00:03:18.440 --> 00:03:20.920
cultural heritage and also
the volunteers
or the tradition bearers.

67
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.800
So

68
00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:25.960
, following up on that.

69
00:03:26.160 --> 00:03:28.600
My role as a moderator was also

70
00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.280
not only - let's say -
the web master or

71
00:03:31.480 --> 00:03:32.880
the content manager.

72
00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:35.400
But I was also a central

73
00:03:35.600 --> 00:03:38.000
person to this network.

74
00:03:38.200 --> 00:03:40.760
And as an organization we tried
to develop

75
00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:43.920
this network the first
years: 2012
, 2013, 2014. That was a big part of my job

76
00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.120
.

77
00:03:47.320 --> 00:03:49.280
To get this network going.

78
00:03:49.480 --> 00:03:52.720
So I also played a role in that

79
00:03:52.920 --> 00:03:55.320
side and I was the center of

80
00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:57.840
this big network of
professionals,

81
00:03:58.040 --> 00:04:00.400
tradition bearers, the
government.

82
00:04:00.600 --> 00:04:03.400
And yeah, I was in charge of
the

83
00:04:03.600 --> 00:04:06.720
flow of information and
guidance

84
00:04:06.920 --> 00:04:09.400
on every aspect and

85
00:04:09.600 --> 00:04:10.920
in every way.

86
00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:14.680
Next to content management
and webmaster.

87
00:04:14.880 --> 00:04:17.920
The content was created by
professionals,

88
00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:20.920
by tradition bearers, but not
by me.

89
00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:23.480
I was only an extra gate

90
00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:26.320
who guided them to ask them
extra

91
00:04:26.520 --> 00:04:29.640
questions if some information
was missing

92
00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:32.200
and we did minimal editing on

93
00:04:32.400 --> 00:04:36.320
the texts before it
was put online.

94
00:04:36.520 --> 00:04:38.680
So my interactions were very
minimal.

95
00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:41.200
And that's why the term
moderator also came up because

96
00:04:41.400 --> 00:04:45.440
that was very clear from the
start, that this was my role.

97
00:04:45.640 --> 00:04:48.000
That it was not to intervene
too much in the

98
00:04:48.200 --> 00:04:53.080
content but just manage it and
moderate it.

99
00:04:53.280 --> 00:04:55.800
Maybe you could describe how
the process

100
00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:58.520
of adding a new element to the

101
00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.160
database goes?

102
00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:05.160
There were different ways

103
00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:07.200
to get in contact with people.

104
00:05:07.400 --> 00:05:09.760
So, it starts with people who

105
00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:12.520
wanted to add their - you say
element

106
00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.160
I say
intangible cultural heritage -
to the database.

107
00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:19.600
Some people just heard
about the database.

108
00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:22.320
Some people just heard about

109
00:05:22.520 --> 00:05:26.120
the official inventory for
intangible cultural heritage
in Flanders.

110
00:05:26.320 --> 00:05:28.760
That was usually

111
00:05:28.960 --> 00:05:31.520
the most common that people
heard about the inventory

112
00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:34.960
and they eventually came up
with the question: how can we

113
00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:37.480
get our intangible cultural
heritage on

114
00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:41.200
this list, as they see it on
the inventory.

115
00:05:41.400 --> 00:05:43.720
So that was usually the most
common question and

116
00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:46.360
how they reached us.

117
00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:48.880
Sometimes it was just us

118
00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:53.000
or other professional
organisations,

119
00:05:53.200 --> 00:05:56.000
who contacted people and on the
other hand, we also organised
some

120
00:05:56.200 --> 00:05:58.720
workshops and stuff like that
; promotional

121
00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.200
actions to promote the site
and the database.

122
00:06:02.400 --> 00:06:05.360
So that once people decide yes

123
00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.000
we want to add our intangible

124
00:06:08.200 --> 00:06:10.280
cultural heritage, they could
ask for that.

125
00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:13.640
That was how the process was in

126
00:06:13.840 --> 00:06:16.000
the first database.

127
00:06:16.200 --> 00:06:19.480
There it was that they could
ask for a login, a

128
00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:21.920
personal one, I would provide
it to them.

129
00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:24.760
Then they get access to the
actual database.

130
00:06:24.960 --> 00:06:27.080
They have a manual.

131
00:06:27.280 --> 00:06:29.800
On how to work with a database
with

132
00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.200
explanations at the different
fields.

133
00:06:32.400 --> 00:06:34.960
What is what is really asked
here

134
00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:37.440
and then they could just go
ahead.

135
00:06:37.640 --> 00:06:40.360
But what we also did and what
we strongly advised

136
00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.240
was to have a conversation
with one of our colleague

137
00:06:43.440 --> 00:06:45.760
organizations that

138
00:06:45.960 --> 00:06:47.720
was linked to their intangible
culture.

139
00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:53.240
To make it more clear, let's
say, someone

140
00:06:53.440 --> 00:06:55.840
who would want to add Carnival
or something

141
00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.440
like that, then we would guide
them through an organization

142
00:06:59.640 --> 00:07:02.080
who worked on social traditions

143
00:07:02.280 --> 00:07:04.600
and that organization would
have a conversation with

144
00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.800
them on what is intangible
heritage.

145
00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:09.320
What is a policy on
intangible heritage, so that
they would

146
00:07:09.520 --> 00:07:11.920
fully grasp the idea of what
intangible

147
00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.680
heritage really is and what it
meant

148
00:07:14.880 --> 00:07:19.080
and where the convention
stands for
where the policy stands for,

149
00:07:19.280 --> 00:07:21.760
what it meant for them in
practice and that it's really
all

150
00:07:21.960 --> 00:07:24.520
about working together and
providing a future

151
00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.560
for your intangible cultural
heritage and keep it

152
00:07:27.760 --> 00:07:28.960
active and alive.

153
00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:31.800
And it's not about the history

154
00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:34.360
of heritage but it's more
about the

155
00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:36.880
future. And once they

156
00:07:37.080 --> 00:07:40.080
got that idea, then this
organization

157
00:07:40.280 --> 00:07:42.960
also guided them not wrote

158
00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:46.120
the text, but they guided them
into the process of

159
00:07:46.320 --> 00:07:48.640
"Okay how are you now gonna
describe it? How

160
00:07:48.840 --> 00:07:51.800
would other people describe it
? Who is involved

161
00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:54.400
? What actions do you take to
create

162
00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:57.720
a future for your intangible
cultural heritage?".

163
00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.040
Actually that was a large
process most of the times.

164
00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.760
Some people just described
their heritage

165
00:08:03.960 --> 00:08:07.480
and described their community,

166
00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:10.720
but it was also necessary

167
00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:16.920
, otherwise you
couldn't be visible

168
00:08:17.340 --> 00:08:18.640
in the front of the database, on the website.

169
00:08:18.840 --> 00:08:21.200
So most of the people really
did this full process.

170
00:08:21.400 --> 00:08:24.400
Not everyone. In

171
00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.920
the end it mostly led to

172
00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.680
filing requests for also

173
00:08:31.880 --> 00:08:35.440
being mentioned on the
inventory of intangible
culture.

174
00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:38.520
Because of this whole process
that they had to

175
00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:41.040
undertake that

176
00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.240
was usually the outcome.

177
00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.040
So this was not my role.

178
00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:48.720
My role was more like OK get

179
00:08:48.920 --> 00:08:51.400
people involved and explain

180
00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:53.960
what the process is about and
refer them to other

181
00:08:54.160 --> 00:08:56.840
organizations who then

182
00:08:57.040 --> 00:08:58.960
did this whole process
with the people

183
00:08:59.160 --> 00:09:01.960
and then once they had written
the texts and have

184
00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:04.480
come to a consensus about the
texts that

185
00:09:04.680 --> 00:09:07.440
they wrote, then they got back
to the

186
00:09:07.640 --> 00:09:11.960
database and started really
filing in the content.

187
00:09:12.160 --> 00:09:15.240
And then I would just make some
little

188
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.640
editing stuff or

189
00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.200
say "Oh maybe it's better to
use that picture", but

190
00:09:22.400 --> 00:09:26.560
my involvement was nothing
more than that anymore at that
time.

191
00:09:26.760 --> 00:09:29.280
I'm also wondering about the
part where

192
00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:33.280
the different
parties that were involved had
to reach a consensus.

193
00:09:33.280 --> 00:09:33.840
Yeah.

194
00:09:34.040 --> 00:09:36.560
Are there any traces

195
00:09:36.760 --> 00:09:40.040
in the inventory about the
process -

196
00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:42.200
of how they reached a consensus
?
Mhm. Or

197
00:09:42.400 --> 00:09:44.560
of the moments where they
didn't reach a
consensus, for example.

198
00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:48.680
Not

199
00:09:48.880 --> 00:09:51.640
in the database itself,
because it was

200
00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:53.680
a process between people.

201
00:09:53.880 --> 00:09:56.960
It wasn't a digital process at
that time.

202
00:09:57.160 --> 00:10:00.560
So, the texts that you see

203
00:10:00.760 --> 00:10:03.880
on the website that are texts
that

204
00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:06.520
they reached a consensus
about,

205
00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:09.160
that's the case certainly now
at this

206
00:10:09.160 --> 00:10:10.320
point with a new database.

207
00:10:10.520 --> 00:10:13.080
If someone isn't in consensus
with how

208
00:10:13.280 --> 00:10:15.720
it is mentioned, they are free
and they can upload

209
00:10:15.920 --> 00:10:18.960
another version and it stands
next to each other.

210
00:10:19.160 --> 00:10:20.720
That wasn't the case in the
previous.

211
00:10:20.920 --> 00:10:23.880
But now the website is open to
that.

212
00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:27.040
Has anyone actually made use of
this feature

213
00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:29.160
, at least until April 2019?

214
00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:30.680
Yes.

215
00:10:30.880 --> 00:10:35.000
So far I don't think so.

216
00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:37.720
The professionals really played

217
00:10:37.920 --> 00:10:40.560
the role of mediator the

218
00:10:40.760 --> 00:10:42.840
past 6-7 years.

219
00:10:43.040 --> 00:10:45.640
That was the idea also

220
00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:49.560
of the policy to bring people

221
00:10:49.760 --> 00:10:52.600
together on intangible
cultural heritage

222
00:10:52.800 --> 00:10:54.960
and it all came back from the
idea they can learn from each

223
00:10:55.160 --> 00:10:57.640
other and it strengthens the

224
00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.440
intangible cultural heritage
if people work together

225
00:11:00.640 --> 00:11:03.200
and if they share their
experience and I think for a
big part

226
00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:05.040
that's that's really true.

227
00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.680
But you still have different
voices

228
00:11:07.880 --> 00:11:10.240
and different meanings and
when 0 I can

229
00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:12.400
understand your question when
it comes to texts.

230
00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:15.200
People can have another vision
on

231
00:11:15.400 --> 00:11:18.680
how something is described or
if

232
00:11:18.880 --> 00:11:21.480
they want to feel connected to
it, but

233
00:11:21.680 --> 00:11:25.240
in the past they got to the
point of a consensus.

234
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:27.920
One of the examples that you

235
00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:30.520
wrote in your email was about
the Giants,

236
00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.040
but that - actually I am
actually not the

237
00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:36.520
person who who can speak
widely about it,

238
00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.080
because it wasn't one of our
projects - and the
organization

239
00:11:39.280 --> 00:11:42.280
who has done that this
was LECA, now they're part of
Histories.

240
00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.080
They were one of the first and
actually they had a process

241
00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:47.840
for 7 or 8, 9 years because

242
00:11:48.040 --> 00:11:50.920
in France you have a lot of
giants and

243
00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:52.320
a lot of small communities

244
00:11:52.520 --> 00:11:55.800
but actually they're all part
of a bigger community

245
00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.440
of people who feel

246
00:11:58.640 --> 00:12:00.960
strongly about the Giants and
keep them alive and

247
00:12:01.160 --> 00:12:04.760
then they said "well we have
to get those people together".

248
00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:07.360
And step by step, year by
year,

249
00:12:07.560 --> 00:12:10.040
they started to work with
these people and

250
00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.040
attract more and more people.

251
00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.640
And support them and actually
in

252
00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:17.440
the end they created a lot of
cells

253
00:12:17.640 --> 00:12:21.520
in different regions
with people

254
00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:25.000
who were more or less
involved.

255
00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.560
They organized workshops in
different regions and so

256
00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:30.480
a total movement actually
arose

257
00:12:30.680 --> 00:12:33.000
and it came to an association
for the

258
00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:36.120
whole of Flanders on this
Giant

259
00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:37.440
culture actually.

260
00:12:37.640 --> 00:12:40.080
And then they applied for a
place on

261
00:12:40.280 --> 00:12:42.800
the inventory as a whole,

262
00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:45.480
but I have to say before

263
00:12:45.680 --> 00:12:48.840
that smaller communities
already applied

264
00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:50.200
for an individual

265
00:12:50.400 --> 00:12:53.080
culture in the city, but

266
00:12:53.280 --> 00:12:56.040
it felt really strong that now
they can speak of

267
00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:58.000
a Giant culture in Flanders.

268
00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:02.160
Then they tried to

269
00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.680
put the differences

270
00:13:04.880 --> 00:13:07.600
into the text on this culture
but of course

271
00:13:07.800 --> 00:13:10.200
you have smaller aspects of

272
00:13:10.400 --> 00:13:12.720
culture in a smaller region
that are different.

273
00:13:12.920 --> 00:13:16.440
But yes you can find some main

274
00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:20.320
lines and teams that

275
00:13:20.520 --> 00:13:21.720
apply to them all.

276
00:13:21.920 --> 00:13:24.320
They did a good job, but

277
00:13:24.520 --> 00:13:27.160
people are now certainly also

278
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:29.840
able to fill in the form

279
00:13:30.040 --> 00:13:31.720
just on their own culture.

280
00:13:31.920 --> 00:13:34.960
That's what I'm trying to say
so we took

281
00:13:35.160 --> 00:13:37.480
that idea of "there has to be
a consensus and

282
00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:40.320
everyone has to work together
", we

283
00:13:40.520 --> 00:13:43.920
took that down a notch in

284
00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:46.840
the second database now.

285
00:13:47.040 --> 00:13:49.560
So now it's more everyone, even
a small community

286
00:13:49.760 --> 00:13:52.120
, even a person can fill in a
form

287
00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:55.040
so that the giant of a small
community

288
00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:56.760
is also visible on the
website.

289
00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:01.160
So the two ways

290
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.640
lie ahead now next to each other in
the new database.
Yeah.

291
00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:08.480
How was this transition made
? Was the

292
00:14:08.680 --> 00:14:11.240
focus on a multiplicity

293
00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.760
of views coming from

294
00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:17.360
the organization Werk
plaats Immaterieel Eerfgoed or

295
00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:19.160
was it coming from the
Flemish government?

296
00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.000
I think it was

297
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:23.680
from both ways.

298
00:14:23.880 --> 00:14:27.200
And there is also another organ

299
00:14:27.400 --> 00:14:29.920
in this whole process and
that's a commission

300
00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:32.640
of experts and

301
00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:35.680
they advise the minister on

302
00:14:35.880 --> 00:14:38.320
which elements should be

303
00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:40.480
on the inventory.

304
00:14:40.680 --> 00:14:43.680
So they really went over all
these appliances

305
00:14:43.880 --> 00:14:46.840
and they also had made some

306
00:14:47.040 --> 00:14:49.720
evaluations on the topic of
the

307
00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:52.360
past years and made some
suggestions.

308
00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:55.240
So when the years went by

309
00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:58.440
faces headed into the same
direction

310
00:14:58.640 --> 00:15:01.040
because we all noticed that
"OK.

311
00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:05.120
This way of working demands a
lot of the
people, ir demands a lot of the

312
00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.360
professionals who are guiding
them.

313
00:15:07.560 --> 00:15:10.960
Certainly

314
00:15:11.160 --> 00:15:13.400
it has has pros, many.

315
00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.120
We have done terrific work on
that,

316
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.840
but in terms of

317
00:15:19.040 --> 00:15:21.480
displaying on a website on

318
00:15:21.680 --> 00:15:24.400
inventorying ICH in Flanders
and displaying

319
00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.560
the diversity of ICH in
Flanders...

320
00:15:28.760 --> 00:15:31.160
These two processes

321
00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:34.720
can come together. They're
just

322
00:15:34.920 --> 00:15:38.080
counterproductive actually,
because it

323
00:15:38.280 --> 00:15:41.160
took such a long time to get
to a text,

324
00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:43.680
so they can display it and
that's not the

325
00:15:43.880 --> 00:15:46.600
match we're trying to make

326
00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:49.280
an inventory of ICHin Flanders
that's

327
00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.400
really diverse also.

328
00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.080
Was this one of the main
reasons to move to a new
database?

329
00:15:55.280 --> 00:15:57.160
Yes it was. Because

330
00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:59.680
the old database and the
content that

331
00:15:59.880 --> 00:16:02.240
was in the database didn't
show the

332
00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.320
diversity of ICH in Flanders
and had problems with that.

333
00:16:06.520 --> 00:16:08.840
So we made an analysis of what
is going on

334
00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:11.920
here and there were a lot of
technical issues,

335
00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:14.800
barriers that slow down that
process

336
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.320
next to the process on how we
work with

337
00:16:17.520 --> 00:16:21.840
the tradition bearers and
the policy and what they

338
00:16:22.040 --> 00:16:24.760
demanded of

339
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.400
work from these volunteers and
that took a long

340
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.920
time for them to develop

341
00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:36.120
and this is almost
counterproductive to the
inventorying ICH in Flanders.

342
00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:39.400
And then you create an image of
ICH in Flanders

343
00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:44.000
only with the ICH

344
00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:48.160
of people who already know the
way to the professional
organizations.

345
00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.920
And then again when you look at
look at it

346
00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:53.800
from the perspective of the
website only typical

347
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:55.360
ICH is presented there.

348
00:16:55.560 --> 00:16:57.960
So it's a conflict. A lot of
steps

349
00:16:58.160 --> 00:17:00.880
had to be taken and you had
a policy,

350
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:03.760
you had  the process on how to

351
00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.360
apply for the inventory, that
are

352
00:17:06.560 --> 00:17:08.600
all barriers,

353
00:17:08.800 --> 00:17:11.880
but you also had the digital

354
00:17:12.080 --> 00:17:14.640
barriers that were definitely

355
00:17:14.840 --> 00:17:17.880
a big part of it because it
was too difficult to work
with.

356
00:17:18.080 --> 00:17:20.880
So

357
00:17:21.080 --> 00:17:23.120
in one year we worked on the
three.

358
00:17:23.320 --> 00:17:25.720
Did you find that being a
moderator

359
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.080
for the NGO the
Werkplaats Immaterieel Erfgoed

360
00:17:29.280 --> 00:17:31.720
was different from being a
moderator for elements

361
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:36.040
that went on the Flemish
inventory?

362
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.920
It's true that my role was
different than

363
00:17:39.120 --> 00:17:42.200
other colleagues of mine in
the NGO.

364
00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.120
And that sometimes it did

365
00:17:45.320 --> 00:17:48.480
in our day to day work it

366
00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.480
did came up that I was more
linked to the government.

367
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:53.920
Or that's how I felt it.

368
00:17:54.120 --> 00:17:56.640
Sometimes I have to say "but no
Ellen, no, that's not true".

369
00:17:56.840 --> 00:17:59.160
But I had the feeling that I
was moderating a

370
00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:01.800
tool of them and

371
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:06.120
that is something that I was
always conscious about.

372
00:18:06.320 --> 00:18:08.360
It's a very direct line.

373
00:18:08.560 --> 00:18:11.840
In the work we have done as an
organization

374
00:18:12.040 --> 00:18:15.480
, we could more develop our own

375
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:20.160
lines and vision on the
website.
We could.

376
00:18:20.360 --> 00:18:23.160
But it's more for working and

377
00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:25.960
finding and way in. Okay how
far

378
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.360
can we go as an
organization whose moderating
this tool?

379
00:18:29.560 --> 00:18:32.200
And when do we have to

380
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:34.760
ask feedback or approval

381
00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:39.080
from the government if we want
to do it like this or like
that.

382
00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:41.520
And then I was a person who was
responsible for that.

383
00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:44.600
So they felt freer
in their work

384
00:18:44.800 --> 00:18:48.960
than I could ever be. Me

385
00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:50.840
personally and as a moderator.

386
00:18:51.040 --> 00:18:53.480
So yeah it was reflected in my

387
00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.200
my work and that's why I was
really happy

388
00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.800
that at the end I could guide

389
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.960
this project as a project
management to do

390
00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.000
the follow up tool in 2018

391
00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:08.840
because at that time we could
as an organization

392
00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:11.480
and me also my

393
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.320
personal expertise in
moderating this website, it

394
00:19:14.520 --> 00:19:16.400
all could come together.

395
00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:20.000
And at that time we also built
up an expertise

396
00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:23.720
or voice as an organization
and

397
00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.120
we're stronger than in 2012.

398
00:19:26.320 --> 00:19:28.800
It was nice to work in

399
00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:31.400
this way with the government
so that we could

400
00:19:31.600 --> 00:19:35.000
develop a tool that everybody
was happy about.

401
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:36.200
Yes this is the way forward.

402
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:38.760
This is what we need to do to

403
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.000
turn this around.

404
00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:45.240
So at the end we were more... I
was more..
.

405
00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:46.160
Yeah I could say..

406
00:19:46.360 --> 00:19:48.200
.

407
00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.000
More colleagues also with the
government not in a way

408
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.920
like what my colleagues on the
Werkplaats,

409
00:19:54.120 --> 00:19:56.520
but we could speak

410
00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:59.200
more freely to each other and
everyone has

411
00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.360
his position and his expertise
and is valued for that.

412
00:20:02.560 --> 00:20:06.040
So that was another way of
working than 6, 7 years before
that.

413
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:11.240
How

414
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.120
do you negotiate the
differences between

415
00:20:15.320 --> 00:20:18.120
the official
Flemish inventory and

416
00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:22.800
the organization's inventory.

417
00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:29.000
Yeah.

418
00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:32.600
That's one of the changes that
was made in

419
00:20:32.800 --> 00:20:36.920
developing the sector, because

420
00:20:37.120 --> 00:20:39.480
like I said before in the
first tool the restrictions

421
00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:41.120
were rather high.

422
00:20:41.320 --> 00:20:44.320
So there had to be a
description.

423
00:20:44.520 --> 00:20:47.280
Of the Intangible Cultural
Heritage and then it's

424
00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:51.960
matched with a definition of
intangible cultural heritage.

425
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.320
The parameters that are that
you can find in the
definition.

426
00:20:56.520 --> 00:20:59.000
One important one for example

427
00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:03.120
is: is it still alive

428
00:21:03.320 --> 00:21:06.000
and active? Are

429
00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.840
people still doing it? Is

430
00:21:09.040 --> 00:21:11.480
there a future for it? So
that's one aspect.

431
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.040
When people enter their
information that was one of
the things

432
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:16.880
that I would really look into

433
00:21:17.080 --> 00:21:19.400
and ask extra questions
whether

434
00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:22.560
or not it was for the
inventory or not that was

435
00:21:22.760 --> 00:21:25.680
for example a very big issue.

436
00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:28.680
But also as certainly on the
first

437
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:32.160
database people had to
describe their community.

438
00:21:32.360 --> 00:21:35.280
And

439
00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:37.880
the government was really
strict about it: from they
have to

440
00:21:38.080 --> 00:21:41.440
describe their community
, otherwise they cannot be
visible in the front.

441
00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:44.160
So they can be in the back-end,
they can work on their

442
00:21:44.360 --> 00:21:47.000
content, but it can only be

443
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.680
made visible once all this
information is included.

444
00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.640
One extra was that they had to
show

445
00:21:54.840 --> 00:21:57.200
that they already had made
some

446
00:21:57.400 --> 00:21:59.280
safeguarding measures.

447
00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.560
So that was three very big
descriptions, we think.

448
00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:06.120
Because what also comes up is
that you have

449
00:22:06.320 --> 00:22:08.240
to have prior and informed
consent.

450
00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:10.240
I don't know if you're familiar
with that.

451
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:14.960
That's something that is strict
in the convention.

452
00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:17.480
You have to have prior and
informed consent to call

453
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.080
something intangible cultural
heritage.

454
00:22:20.280 --> 00:22:22.680
So the government felt really
strongly

455
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:25.720
about and that was a really
strong restriction

456
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.200
for me to moderate
this content

457
00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.240
and that would lead up to
asking extra

458
00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:34.120
questions to the people.

459
00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:36.720
So for 6, 7 years, me

460
00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:39.520
as a moderator,

461
00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.720
there was almost nothing that
I could moderate

462
00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:45.240
and make visible in the front

463
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:46.560
other than the inventory

464
00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:50.240
for cultural heritage because
the standards are so high.

465
00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:52.320
So there was almost no
difference.

466
00:22:52.520 --> 00:22:54.960
And that's something that we
made notable to

467
00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:59.400
the government and now the
restrictions are much lesser.

468
00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:03.160
So we pulled it apart.

469
00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:05.880
So now people who want to make
their intangible

470
00:23:06.080 --> 00:23:07.880
cultural heritage visible they
can.

471
00:23:08.080 --> 00:23:09.480
They only have a form.

472
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.720
And five six questions that
they had to fill in.

473
00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:15.360
And then they click a bottom
where they

474
00:23:15.560 --> 00:23:18.000
say yes I have read the
definition

475
00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:20.720
of intangible cultural
heritage and this is
intangible

476
00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.000
cultural heritage to me.

477
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.160
And that's

478
00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:29.120
also all that the convention
asks for.

479
00:23:29.320 --> 00:23:31.640
But the government interpreted
the

480
00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:36.160
convention at a very high
level.

481
00:23:36.360 --> 00:23:37.600
Difficult level.

482
00:23:37.800 --> 00:23:40.480
So we tried to narrow it down

483
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:46.680
and split it out.

484
00:23:47.080 --> 00:23:49.520
The moderator now, he can just
look

485
00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:52.120
into the texts that come up on

486
00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:54.720
this little forum and

487
00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.080
if people are interested in

488
00:23:58.280 --> 00:24:00.720
applying for the inventory
they can

489
00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:03.520
start to fill in another form
with

490
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.680
more questions but also easier
questions

491
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:09.240
than ever before to fill in a

492
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.840
form to apply for the
inventory and they

493
00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:14.520
can also

494
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.480
get in contact with other
organizations if they wanted.

495
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:20.720
But also that is not necessary
anymore. And

496
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:20.600
previous times it was
necessary.

497
00:24:20.800 --> 00:24:24.720
When

498
00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:27.440
you made the transition from
the previous database to the
new

499
00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:28.080
database,
what happened with these elements?

500
00:24:28.280 --> 00:24:30.680
Very important in this

501
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.680
process was it was not only
a new database

502
00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.440
, but it was also a new way of
reporting.

503
00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:40.120
I don't know if you are
familiar with that concept
? That every

504
00:24:40.320 --> 00:24:43.000
year elements who are on the
inventory

505
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:46.640
, they had to make a report on
how they

506
00:24:46.840 --> 00:24:50.120
develop safeguarding measures
that year and how it has
evolved.

507
00:24:50.320 --> 00:24:52.960
And also they were asked to

508
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.800
look into the description of
the heritage

509
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.680
and make changes if something

510
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.040
changed, or has come up, or
add something or.

511
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.000
But not many have done that
in the past years.

512
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.280
So we thought well there's a
new database now.

513
00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:15.120
But it's also a different way
of working.

514
00:25:15.320 --> 00:25:17.840
So we kept them informed.

515
00:25:18.040 --> 00:25:19.880
We thought that was very
important.

516
00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:22.560
On the new process, but also
what we

517
00:25:22.760 --> 00:25:25.080
were aiming for with this new
website and

518
00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:28.080
this new database and actually
it was the government

519
00:25:28.280 --> 00:25:29.640
who led that process.

520
00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:32.160
I made suggestions on how to do
that, but they were in

521
00:25:32.360 --> 00:25:34.240
contact with the communities.

522
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.080
So we were restricted

523
00:25:37.280 --> 00:25:40.520
the number of
characters that a text could
have

524
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:43.600
and a lot of texts were for
example I'm

525
00:25:43.800 --> 00:25:47.480
giving you a very straight
clear example.

526
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:51.080
The texts were very long. So we
narrowed it down

527
00:25:51.280 --> 00:25:53.920
and we did edit

528
00:25:54.120 --> 00:25:57.360
the texts to make it more web
friendly

529
00:25:57.560 --> 00:25:59.640
and then we gave it back to
the communities,

530
00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:02.160
we informed that we were going
to do that and then we gave it
back to the

531
00:26:02.360 --> 00:26:04.680
communities and we didn't

532
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:08.600
enter any new texts before we
got their consent.

533
00:26:08.800 --> 00:26:11.360
Looking at the experts from
their new database

534
00:26:11.560 --> 00:26:14.440
one column that stands out is
that of weight,

535
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.040
referring of course to the
order in which the elements
are

536
00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:18.960
displayed on the website.

537
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.440
And most of the elements seem
to have a different weight
from another.

538
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.920
Could you mention how that
selection is made?

539
00:26:26.120 --> 00:26:28.560
The grand idea about the new
website was all

540
00:26:28.760 --> 00:26:31.640
diversity, diversity,
diversity. And we

541
00:26:31.840 --> 00:26:35.120
wanted to have an impact on
the image of intangible
cultural

542
00:26:35.320 --> 00:26:38.160
heritage and what it all can be
and is in Flanders

543
00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:41.160
and not only just typical
Carnival

544
00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:44.120
and Processions

545
00:26:44.320 --> 00:26:46.520
but that is much more than
that.

546
00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:49.680
So we wanted to have also

547
00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:52.240
a sort of algorithm, because

548
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:54.840
there's only a few elements
that can be shown

549
00:26:55.040 --> 00:26:57.720
on the front page and also

550
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.960
when you enter the part of the
elements.

551
00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:03.920
Also there, there is every day

552
00:27:04.120 --> 00:27:07.160
, every element has a different
place

553
00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:08.440
in how it's presented.

554
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:11.160
It can be on the first page
it can be the second.

555
00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:16.200
We wanted it also to change to
have algorithms in the
database.

556
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:18.800
And that's all because we
wanted to show

557
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:21.960
this diversity of elements,

558
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:24.720
but we would have done it in a
full

559
00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:26.800
automatic way.

560
00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:31.040
But the budget wasn't
sufficient enough.

561
00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:33.560
So the developers came back to
us

562
00:27:33.760 --> 00:27:37.080
and said "no we can't do it
that way but we have another
idea.

563
00:27:37.080 --> 00:27:37.840
We switch it.

564
00:27:38.040 --> 00:27:40.360
And with this bar you can give

565
00:27:40.560 --> 00:27:43.160
it a percentage and then it
has a lower or higher

566
00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:46.000
chance to come on the front
page

567
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:48.280
or to come on the first or the
second or the third".

568
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.760
And when we speak of diversity
it's on different

569
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:54.600
levels: it's the level of the
different domains

570
00:27:54.800 --> 00:27:56.560
of cultural heritage.

571
00:27:56.760 --> 00:27:59.400
It's whether it's heritage

572
00:27:59.600 --> 00:28:02.800
that takes place in cities or

573
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:06.560
in the mainland or that's

574
00:28:06.760 --> 00:28:09.720
mainly done by elders or by
youngsters.

575
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:12.240
So these differences, we

576
00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:14.400
wanted to reflect it all.

577
00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:17.960
And with that in our back of
our head we would manually

578
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:20.520
give it a different percentage
every month,

579
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:22.000
every week.